Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

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mrvn
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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by mrvn » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:03 pm

While the random look on the belt looks nice for sure I wonder about the cost. Doesn't it mean you need N times as many icons for each resource. Meaning N times the graphics ram and more complex rendering setup?

Will there be an option to turn this off to reduce memory overhead without going all the way to low pixel icons?

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Ormy » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:06 pm

Azzinoth wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:07 pm
I think randomizing the resource icons is a great idea, but to be honest it still looks very repetitive to me.

The reason is that one ore item is always represented by 4 ore chunks of almost equal size and then placed at the corners of a square. In the last picture it is most visible for copper and stone. I'm pretty sure if i would make a spatial fourier transform of these belts I would get very localized spikes. What you need to do is randomize the spatial frequency a bit more.

To do that i would make the first icon out of 4 medium sized ore chunks, the next icon out of one very big chunk, the next icon out of one bigger chunk and one smaller chunk etc. That would give you more variation of sizes and distances between visible chunks, even tough the icons all have the same distance from each other.

I personally would also sprinkle some dirt over the chunks and the space between them. They are just coming out of the ground and look too clean for my taste...
Seconded. I think this is a great idea to introduce more randomness into the icons and make it look truly natural.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Qon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:56 pm

mrvn wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:03 pm
While the random look on the belt looks nice for sure I wonder about the cost. Doesn't it mean you need N times as many icons for each resource. Meaning N times the graphics ram and more complex rendering setup?

Will there be an option to turn this off to reduce memory overhead without going all the way to low pixel icons?
It's only for raw resources and it's only for graphics that are already very small. The rocket silo was made 9x9 instead of 9x10 so that should free up a large porton of those extra kiB that you lost. ;)

Really though it's a bit weird to ask for the ability to reduce video memory usage by a minuscule and unnoticeable amount while sticking with high res graphics that require many orders of magnitude more VRAM. A modern card can store millions of tiny icons.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by mrvn » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:27 pm

Qon wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:56 pm
mrvn wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:03 pm
While the random look on the belt looks nice for sure I wonder about the cost. Doesn't it mean you need N times as many icons for each resource. Meaning N times the graphics ram and more complex rendering setup?

Will there be an option to turn this off to reduce memory overhead without going all the way to low pixel icons?
It's only for raw resources and it's only for graphics that are already very small. The rocket silo was made 9x9 instead of 9x10 so that should free up a large porton of those extra kiB that you lost. ;)

Really though it's a bit weird to ask for the ability to reduce video memory usage by a minuscule and unnoticeable amount while sticking with high res graphics that require many orders of magnitude more VRAM. A modern card can store millions of tiny icons.
Only for raw resources? In vanilla this might be limited to iron, copper, coal, stone, uranium. Maybe wood too?

But thinking of Bobs and Angels mod there are a lot more. 6 Angels ores, 8 crushed Angels ores, crushed stone, crystal dust, slag, 15 Bobs ores, and probably a bunch I'm forgetting that could use this feature.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Qon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:11 pm

If it is actually a problem with a mod then the mods can add that as an option in their startup settings. It isn't really needed as a factorio setting. Or a mod can disable variations for all items, vanilla and other mods. That mod is probably written before the feature is out anyways :)
Plates and other products are things that are made in machines so they all look the same.

I love the variations though.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by eradicator » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:39 pm

@Qon:
Accodording to
V453000

The mod should look like this :twisted: :

Code: Select all

for _=1,99 do
  table.insert(icon_variations,{icon='copper-plate.png'})
  end
table.insert(icon_variations,{icon='iron-plate.png'})
Damn...now i want proper probability support. I'll call the mod Cthulhu Belts.
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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Qon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:03 pm

eradicator wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:39 pm
The mod should look like this :twisted: :

Code: Select all

for _=1,99 do
  table.insert(icon_variations,{icon='copper-plate.png'})
  end
table.insert(icon_variations,{icon='iron-plate.png'})
Damn...now i want proper probability support. I'll call the mod Cthulhu Belts.
Great minds think alike. I had the same idea, but with the variations being the proper variations. So you would go "huh... does that copper ore that went by look slightly different to you?" and then it would be gone before you have time to stop the belt and inspect it. So you go on and occasionally catch some irregularity on the belts in the corner of your eye but you are never quite sure if the belts are uncompressed or if there's a wrong item somewhere. :twisted:

Your idea might be even eviler but might get found out earlier since it is not as subtle. So it maybe won't last long enough to drive anyone insane.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by eradicator » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:07 pm

Qon wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:03 pm
Your idea might be even eviler but might get found out earlier since it is not as subtle. So it maybe won't last long enough to drive anyone insane.
The problem is that 1% of 45i/s is still 1 every 2 seconds. 1 every 12 belt tiles.
Mine has a higher panic factor with wrong variations though.
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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Qon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:51 pm

Well, the percentage is adjustable. If Factorio doesn't dedupe same file loaded 100000 times then you might need a mod that removes variations to deal with your VRAM problem though...

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by eradicator » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:20 pm

Qon wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:51 pm
Well, the percentage is adjustable. If Factorio doesn't dedupe same file loaded 100000 times then you might need a mod that removes variations to deal with your VRAM problem though...
I think it doesn't. And also @V453000 suggested that there is a maximum to how many variations something can have. Thus my longing for "proper probability support". There's probably™ even a sane usecase for it.
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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Nickiel12 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:04 pm

Those new resource icons on the belts really feel like a river of unrefined resources if flowing down the conveyor belt. It is amazing!!

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by mmills426 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:04 am

The new resource icons are amazing. Yet another feature I didn't know how much I wanted until I saw it. This game just keeps getting better and better.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Yijare » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:33 pm

The new icons just look out of place and if they belong to another game. when looking in the alt view, the icons on bots an/or chest just look horrendous.
Madness? No, just insannity!

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Ext3h » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:49 pm

Is there any specific plan to address the unstable Z order issues, which became even more prominent after increasing the belt density? As nice as it looks on a straight piece, in corners, or on tiles adjacent to corners, you quickly notice the order shifting.

With now randomized variations, you are hitting uncanny valley.

Before you would get used to it, immersion breaks shortly around that defect, but it's an "uninteresting pattern" and as long as the belt it full, you get to "ignore" that defect eventually as it was just a repeating pattern. Now you have "unique features" moving, which are a lot harder to ignore, especially since you are triggered to track features unconsciously, so a discontinuity in an items visibility becomes immediately apparent.

That said, you need a better solution for Z order changes, if you are to introduce unique features in a packed belt. Otherwise complaints about motion sickness due to that addition are ensued.
  • Alpha blending between the two different layering orders in corners might work - if you can afford the overhead, as that requires composition in a dedicated layer, with opacity flushed to boolean before composing back onto the belt layer.
  • Adding depth channel to sprites won't work, you would still be suffering from features clipping as the density of items varies.
  • Making Z order on belt depend on movement direction rather than following NS/WE rules, probably won't work, with pre-baked lightning.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by SkiCarver » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:26 pm

Ext3h wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:49 pm
Is there any specific plan to address the unstable Z order issues, which became even more prominent after increasing the belt density? As nice as it looks on a straight piece, in corners, or on tiles adjacent to corners, you quickly notice the order shifting.

With now randomized variations, you are hitting uncanny valley.

Before you would get used to it, immersion breaks shortly around that defect, but it's an "uninteresting pattern" and as long as the belt it full, you get to "ignore" that defect eventually as it was just a repeating pattern. Now you have "unique features" moving, which are a lot harder to ignore, especially since you are triggered to track features unconsciously, so a discontinuity in an items visibility becomes immediately apparent.

That said, you need a better solution for Z order changes, if you are to introduce unique features in a packed belt. Otherwise complaints about motion sickness due to that addition are ensued.
  • Alpha blending between the two different layering orders in corners might work - if you can afford the overhead, as that requires composition in a dedicated layer, with opacity flushed to boolean before composing back onto the belt layer.
  • Adding depth channel to sprites won't work, you would still be suffering from features clipping as the density of items varies.
  • Making Z order on belt depend on movement direction rather than following NS/WE rules, probably won't work, with pre-baked lightning.
rather than trying to fix a material compression issue with z-depth, perhaps change the belt corner design. Rather than the 'luggage return' style belt with the associated shorter path on the inside, do as real ore belts do ... drop from one belt to another. (the 0.17 update includes a hint of this with the new t-junction graphic.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by mrvn » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:42 am

SkiCarver wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:26 pm
Ext3h wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:49 pm
Is there any specific plan to address the unstable Z order issues, which became even more prominent after increasing the belt density? As nice as it looks on a straight piece, in corners, or on tiles adjacent to corners, you quickly notice the order shifting.

With now randomized variations, you are hitting uncanny valley.

Before you would get used to it, immersion breaks shortly around that defect, but it's an "uninteresting pattern" and as long as the belt it full, you get to "ignore" that defect eventually as it was just a repeating pattern. Now you have "unique features" moving, which are a lot harder to ignore, especially since you are triggered to track features unconsciously, so a discontinuity in an items visibility becomes immediately apparent.

That said, you need a better solution for Z order changes, if you are to introduce unique features in a packed belt. Otherwise complaints about motion sickness due to that addition are ensued.
  • Alpha blending between the two different layering orders in corners might work - if you can afford the overhead, as that requires composition in a dedicated layer, with opacity flushed to boolean before composing back onto the belt layer.
  • Adding depth channel to sprites won't work, you would still be suffering from features clipping as the density of items varies.
  • Making Z order on belt depend on movement direction rather than following NS/WE rules, probably won't work, with pre-baked lightning.
rather than trying to fix a material compression issue with z-depth, perhaps change the belt corner design. Rather than the 'luggage return' style belt with the associated shorter path on the inside, do as real ore belts do ... drop from one belt to another. (the 0.17 update includes a hint of this with the new t-junction graphic.
You mean like a T junction except one side of the belt is longer so it drops on the far side of the other belt?

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by SkiCarver » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:04 am

mrvn wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:42 am
SkiCarver wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:26 pm
Ext3h wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:49 pm
....
rather than trying to fix a material compression issue with z-depth, perhaps change the belt corner design. Rather than the 'luggage return' style belt with the associated shorter path on the inside, do as real ore belts do ... drop from one belt to another. (the 0.17 update includes a hint of this with the new t-junction graphic.
You mean like a T junction except one side of the belt is longer so it drops on the far side of the other belt?
yes. either a two stage drop like you describe, or a diagonal drop ...

i was even thinking that, for ores, they should be two parrallel belts looking like;

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-ph ... 467263.jpg

use the 'luggage return' belts for products only.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by Lubricus » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:24 am

I think the ore icons on the belts is somehow off. It's to much on the belt it's looks like it will fall off the belts.
Shrinking the icons a tad could help also have a little more space between the individual rocks in the icon. Then it would be easier to se what belt it is under the gravel and probably also looking better.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by SkiCarver » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:28 pm

Lubricus wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:24 am
I think the ore icons on the belts is somehow off. It's to much on the belt it's looks like it will fall off the belts.
Shrinking the icons a tad could help also have a little more space between the individual rocks in the icon. Then it would be easier to se what belt it is under the gravel and probably also looking better.
While i like the new ores, i agree with the above. that would also ft with my previous post.

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Re: Friday Facts #297 - New resource icons

Post by ReiSt » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:22 am

To the part "Inserters are now smarter" I want to add something, which may solve the problems without causing any troubles in timing.

Is it possible to change the behaviour of the inserters in that way, that it is forbidden to rotate and they only have the possibility to swing back and forth?
Because the one inserter, which is 1 Tick slower, makes a complete rotation while the other three inserters only make a swinging move...

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