pY Petroleum Handling

[Mithaldu]

Hot Air doesn't interact correctly with Nexelit.

yield: 0.2 - 5 raw nex -> 1 nex plate
yield: 0.33 - 18 raw nex -> 6 clean nex -> 6 nex plate
yield: 0.6 - 5 raw nex + hot air -> 3 nex plate
yield: 0.44 - 18 raw nex -> 6 clean nex + hot air -> 8 nex plate

everything looks fine to me. anything with hot air gets a +2 output

The point is that from that math, you want to use the raw + hot air recipe rather than doing the cleaning step at all, to optimize the use of the raw nexelit. This is kind of a pervasive theme with hot air at the moment, often the most basic recipe with hot air included beats out the medium complexity recipes. This happens with glass for example; until quartz 2 research, you're better off just hitting quartz ore with hot air than you are going through any of the crushed quartz options.

Thanks for explaining Blokus. Much better worded than i could've.

Though in this particular example it is a little bit more complicated because you can replenish some of the raw nexelit you spent in the cleaning step by evaporating the tailings into raw nexelit.

I did the math on those as well, and due to the stark difference hot air makes for raw nex vs clean nex, it's still more effective to ignore the cleaning step, especially when one uses tailings as a nex source in the first place.

[kingarthur]

Hot Air doesn't interact correctly with Nexelit.

yield: 0.2 - 5 raw nex -> 1 nex plate
yield: 0.33 - 18 raw nex -> 6 clean nex -> 6 nex plate
yield: 0.6 - 5 raw nex + hot air -> 3 nex plate
yield: 0.44 - 18 raw nex -> 6 clean nex + hot air -> 8 nex plate

everything looks fine to me. anything with hot air gets a +2 output

The point is that from that math, you want to use the raw + hot air recipe rather than doing the cleaning step at all, to optimize the use of the raw nexelit. This is kind of a pervasive theme with hot air at the moment, often the most basic recipe with hot air included beats out the medium complexity recipes. This happens with glass for example; until quartz 2 research, you're better off just hitting quartz ore with hot air than you are going through any of the crushed quartz options.

Though in this particular example it is a little bit more complicated because you can replenish some of the raw nexelit you spent in the cleaning step by evaporating the tailings into raw nexelit.

ok. given the somewhat limited wording of the post the way i read it i thought he meant it wasnt working right not its not balanced well. hot air does in fact interact correctly with nexelit. its functional just not considered good.

[Blokus]

Hot Air doesn't interact correctly with Nexelit.

yield: 0.2 - 5 raw nex -> 1 nex plate
yield: 0.33 - 18 raw nex -> 6 clean nex -> 6 nex plate
yield: 0.6 - 5 raw nex + hot air -> 3 nex plate
yield: 0.44 - 18 raw nex -> 6 clean nex + hot air -> 8 nex plate

everything looks fine to me. anything with hot air gets a +2 output

The point is that from that math, you want to use the raw + hot air recipe rather than doing the cleaning step at all, to optimize the use of the raw nexelit. This is kind of a pervasive theme with hot air at the moment, often the most basic recipe with hot air included beats out the medium complexity recipes. This happens with glass for example; until quartz 2 research, you're better off just hitting quartz ore with hot air than you are going through any of the crushed quartz options.

Though in this particular example it is a little bit more complicated because you can replenish some of the raw nexelit you spent in the cleaning step by evaporating the tailings into raw nexelit.

ok. given the somewhat limited wording of the post the way i read it i thought he meant it wasnt working right not its not balanced well. hot air does in fact interact correctly with nexelit. its functional just not considered good.

It sounds like you're saying the code does what you expect it to do. What we are saying is that the design doesn't make sense. You should always get more yield per input out of carrying out a more complex chain, especially if it involves additional ingredients (like the quartz 1 chain). Raw Ores by itself obeys this principle for the most part, but PH's hot air flagrantly violates it in multiple places.

At the moment, I can think of three possible exceptions:

• The more complex chain might produce an intermediate that you will actually require somewhere else (for example, you can't make stainless steel without making molten steel first). Justifying a complex chain on the basis of its useful intermediates is OK to do a little bit. If you lean too heavily on this idea, then you're likely to wind up with players just making two setups, one smaller one for the intermediates and a larger, simpler one for the "end product".
• The simpler chain is very slow and so consumes a lot of space/power to deploy at scale. I don't really see why you would design things this way, but I still might use the more complex thing if faced with a game set up this way.
• One can "shortcut" into the more complex chain by making an intermediate in a different way. One example of this is that after quartz 2 research, it is possible to make crushed quartz from sand instead of quartz ore, but in this case of course you can't simply do quartz ore + hot air -> glass.

[kingarthur]

thats exactly what i said. based on what was presented. i took it to mean that something was not working. clearly that wasnt the intent and i misunderstood what he was getting at.

other than just removing hot-air from t1 as is a obvious solution if you've got suggestions to fix the issue feel free to volunteer some. id have to go look at the numbers but for the nexelit at least could low the amount hot air gives from 2 to 1 or look at changing hot-air from a flat 2 plates to maybe a 25% increase on each recipe maybe

[Blokus]

thats exactly what i said. based on what was presented. i took it to mean that something was not working. clearly that wasnt the intent and i misunderstood what he was getting at.

other than just removing hot-air from t1 as is a obvious solution if you've got suggestions to fix the issue feel free to volunteer some. id have to go look at the numbers but for the nexelit at least could low the amount hot air gives from 2 to 1 or look at changing hot-air from a flat 2 plates to maybe a 25% increase on each recipe maybe

As you said, just do it based on a percentage, possibly changing what that percentage is with tier, and possibly rounding the percentage (so you don't have awkward recipes that go like 54->107 or whatever). In any case, doing it with a flat modifier will more or less always cause quirks like this one.

[Mithaldu]

I refrained from making suggestions because i couldn't synthesize the rationale behind the flat +2 increase on my own and there was none documented.

Unless pyanodon has specific disagreeing input i'd personally also see changing it to a percentage to be a useful change.

Particularly the Nexelit situation doesn't have any other easy fixes that wouldn't be hard-coded kludges.

[kingarthur]

well im not sure i can just do a percent without some adjustments as im not sure how factorio would handle a none whole number output and if i go to the next whole number first tier and probably second tier would be right back to the same issue. ill look into it and make some adjustments and find a better setup that will make them balance out better. take a few days to work them all over

[TwentyEighty]

Py just rebalanced most of this. Is anything actually unbalanced besides nexelit or is that the only one?

[Mithaldu]

I have not checked anything else, only noticed it for the nex.

[immortal_sniper1]

ill do the math and balance it with py like i did with all the other ores
ill do it in like 2-3h from now

[Blokus]

Py just rebalanced most of this. Is anything actually unbalanced besides nexelit or is that the only one?

IMO sp2 tier glass still needs another look, but it's not objectively imbalanced: the crushed quartz and powdered quartz recipes do yield more glass per unit quartz ore than the quartz ore + hot air recipe does.

[MrPlate]

Rubber in science pack 2 made too difficult to reach railways . At that stage the research of rubber is challanging to made pynobot.

[Blokus]

Rubber in science pack 2 made too difficult to reach railways . At that stage the research of rubber is challanging to made pynobot.

Making a small amount of rubber to get your science online is easy. Rushing pynobots, of either type, not so much.

[MrPlate]

Making a small amount of rubber to get your science online is easy. Rushing pynobots, of either type, not so much.

The problem is that i want to play 6x research difficult and with half resource on strating area, then do research until rubber is very hard in term of collecting resources ( at first coal and crystal).

[MrPlate]

Rushing pynobots, of either type, not so much

But.. Py roboport are unlocked with motors...

[Blokus]

Making a small amount of rubber to get your science online is easy. Rushing pynobots, of either type, not so much.

The problem is that i want to play 6x research difficult and with half resource on strating area, then do research until rubber is very hard in term of collecting resources ( at first coal and crystal).

That's a self-inflicted wound, IMO.

Rushing pynobots, of either type, not so much

But.. Py roboport are unlocked with motors...

Yeah, and the chests aren't, so they're useless. I still have no clue why Py unlocks bots with Engine.

[pyanodon]

Yeah, and the chests aren't, so they're useless. I still have no clue why Py unlocks bots with Engine.

you guys really should update your mods before complain here. Chests are unlocked with bots for a while

[Mithaldu]

I noticed that when i perused the commit history, and thought it was nice.

That said:

The ingame mod changelog viewer doesn't seem to like your changelog format, so people have to take extra steps to read it.

And even for those who read it, "Fixed storage chests" may not necessarily make it clear to them you made the storage chests available with the engine research.

[pyanodon]

dont expect me writting long texts explaining whats changed everytime hehehe

[Mithaldu]

I'm happy you're creating such a fun mod in the first place.