[MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by dreemkitten » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 pm

i updated to 1.4.9 today, loaders aren't loading INTO anything, tho i only checked your warehouses, and a brass chest. dropped down to 1.4.8, and things work correctly again. not sure what happened, or if it is for everyone, but i have the issue, Im using .17.24

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by nezrel » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:29 am

dreemkitten wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 pm
i updated to 1.4.9 today, loaders aren't loading INTO anything, tho i only checked your warehouses, and a brass chest. dropped down to 1.4.8, and things work correctly again. not sure what happened, or if it is for everyone, but i have the issue, Im using .17.24
Had same problem using .17.24. Updating factorio to most recent version (.17.31) fixed the issue.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by ApocNL » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:47 am

nezrel wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:29 am
dreemkitten wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 pm
i updated to 1.4.9 today, loaders aren't loading INTO anything, tho i only checked your warehouses, and a brass chest. dropped down to 1.4.8, and things work correctly again. not sure what happened, or if it is for everyone, but i have the issue, Im using .17.24
Had same problem using .17.24. Updating factorio to most recent version (.17.31) fixed the issue.
I have the same problem.
Updated too latest factorio and mod version. Still not loading into stuff...

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by aklesey1 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:21 am

https://yadi.sk/i/LP66g23-fSX7PA
Conflict with Deadlock compact loaders :( mod
I get this error only deadlock compact loader and loaders redux are active
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/LoaderRedux - version 1.4.9
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/deadlock- ... es-loaders version 2.1.10

All 2 tyoes of loaders don't need electricity
Loaders from Redux mod i need for loading and unloading trains - and compact loaders is very convenient for another goals for my factory
Just want to use them together - or its not compatible for now?
What means this error?

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by aklesey1 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:32 pm

I reinstalled https://mods.factorio.com/mod/deadlock- ... es-loaders this mod again and error not appears in 0.17.32 version now

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by KarianZ » Thu May 16, 2019 2:15 pm

Hey there,
latest versions of Seablock and Factorio dont seem to adjust loader speed to belt speed :)
so yellow belt and yellow loader are missmatched etc.
Loaders are too fast so its not really a concern though.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by DudebroPyro » Tue May 21, 2019 4:13 pm

I'm a bit confused on the performance between this mod and miniloaders. The latter bills itself as being very UPS-friendly in multiple places, but to my understanding uses two inserter entities internally, while your mod only uses a single (loader) entity.
Is my understanding correct that Loader Redux is more performant everywhere except for cargo wagons, while miniloaders can handle cargo wagons as well as anything else but are less performant everywhere else (anywhere the vanilla loaders work)?

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by Optera » Thu May 23, 2019 6:21 am

DudebroPyro wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:13 pm
I'm a bit confused on the performance between this mod and miniloaders. The latter bills itself as being very UPS-friendly in multiple places, but to my understanding uses two inserter entities internally, while your mod only uses a single (loader) entity.
Is my understanding correct that Loader Redux is more performant everywhere except for cargo wagons, while miniloaders can handle cargo wagons as well as anything else but are less performant everywhere else (anywhere the vanilla loaders work)?
Inserter-belt interaction is highly optimized as that's the normal interaction in base factorio.
The loader entity type is not used in base factorio so isn't this optimized.

On wagon - belt there is no question about miniloader having magnitudes better performance.
On chest - belt interaction the slow speed miniloader seem better. For belt speeds higher than 60 items/second Miniloader has to use a loader entity alongside its 2 hidden inserters, negating any performance advantage over pure loaders.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by eradicator » Thu May 23, 2019 7:11 am

Optera wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 6:21 am
On wagon - belt there is no question about miniloader having magnitudes better performance.
On chest - belt interaction the slow speed miniloader seem better. For belt speeds higher than 60 items/second Miniloader has to use a loader entity alongside its 2 hidden inserters, negating any performance advantage over pure loaders.
If the description is correct:
Miniloader Mod Portal Page wrote: Factorio core engine limitations restrict inserters pulling from belts to
60 items/second, or 4.5x yellow belt speed. Further, loader entities are
restricted to 120 items/second.
Then above 120/second miniloaders win again, because single loaders can't do it at all :).

Also if you're really worried about 60/s+ you could try to talk to Therax (the author of miniloaders) and if you're lucky he'll remove the additional inserters not needed for non-train 60~120/s transfer.
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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by DudebroPyro » Fri May 24, 2019 11:06 pm

Optera wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 6:21 am
Inserter-belt interaction is highly optimized as that's the normal interaction in base factorio.
The loader entity type is not used in base factorio so isn't this optimized.
This makes sense, thanks!
eradicator wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:11 am
Also if you're really worried about 60/s+ you could try to talk to Therax (the author of miniloaders) and if you're lucky he'll remove the additional inserters not needed for non-train 60~120/s transfer.
I thought the main reason to have two inserters would be to balance across both lanes (or rather, to be able to fill them both in the first place, balancing being just a nice bonus).
Either way, I'm not terribly concerned with performance yet, I was mostly curious. I imagine if you're gonna be building multiple k spm bases, anything other than pure vanilla inserters are a bad idea anyway.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by Optera » Sat May 25, 2019 5:27 am

DudebroPyro wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:06 pm
Either way, I'm not terribly concerned with performance yet, I was mostly curious. I imagine if you're gonna be building multiple k spm bases, anything other than pure vanilla inserters are a bad idea anyway.
Depends, I'm using loaders alongside miniloaders in my 2kspm base.

Going really deep into internal workings of Factorio, Miniloaders have some quirks inhereted from the hidden inserters making them unsuitable to some extremly niche situations:
  • Getting inserters into sleep mode before powering down is very tricky
    • Inserters never sleep when holding items
    • Normal Inserters wake up when items pass by on a belt and never go to sleep again
      Filter inserters will sleep properly if in whitelist mode without active filter signal. I never tested how they behave with the new blacklist mode.
  • they add ever so slightly add to electrical network update
    potential for microstutter when turning large numbers of them on and off rapidly, e.g. faulty flip-flop
  • one miniloader adds 3 entities to entity count
    Pure speculation here, but adding 3 entities to entity update, no matter how optimised, might at one point become worse than updating one.
  • sometimes they fail to balance between lanes as nice as loaders
As with all things, know the limitations of a tool and use the tool optimized for one specific job for optimal results.
The worst thing i've seen players do is wagon - loader - loader - warehouse - loader - belt, also loaders between warehouses to balance.
When instead they could use wagon - stack inserter - wide chest - loader - belt. Inherently balanced between up to 6 wagons with minimal entity count playing to each entities strengths.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by eradicator » Sat May 25, 2019 9:52 am

Optera wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 5:27 am
As with all things, know the limitations of a tool and use the tool optimized for one specific job for optimal results.
The worst thing i've seen players do is wagon - loader - loader - warehouse - loader - belt, also loaders between warehouses to balance.
When instead they could use wagon - stack inserter - wide chest - loader - belt. Inherently balanced between up to 6 wagons with minimal entity count playing to each entities strengths.
A 6-wagon-wide chest, i.e. a chest with "a large amount of slots" will then again cause slowdown due to the "inserters iterate all the slots all the time" problem though. Aka: The more slots a chest has, the more performance it costs for *each* inserter to access it.
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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by boran_blok » Mon May 27, 2019 6:24 am

personally I use wagon -> filtered loader -> loader -> wooden chest -> belt

This is a minimal buffer, but I don't know the slot iteration cost vs loaders cost.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by Optera » Mon May 27, 2019 10:27 am

eradicator wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 9:52 am
A 6-wagon-wide chest, i.e. a chest with "a large amount of slots" will then again cause slowdown due to the "inserters iterate all the slots all the time" problem though. Aka: The more slots a chest has, the more performance it costs for *each* inserter to access it.
boran_blok wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:24 am
personally I use wagon -> filtered loader -> loader -> wooden chest -> belt

This is a minimal buffer, but I don't know the slot iteration cost vs loaders cost.
One 1k slot wide chest with 4 loaders to 4 compressed belts is magnitudes better for performance than using 36 individual chests with 36 loaders and merging splitters.

Maybe having 6 warehouses limited to 200 slots each vs one 1k slot wide chest would be closer but I somewhat doubt the slot iteration takes more than the additional loaders and splitters.
If you do those tests please add a link to the results.

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by Itemfinder » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:53 am

What is the "inserters iterate all the slots all the time" problem? Are loaders also affected?

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by eradicator » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:32 am

Itemfinder wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:53 am
What is the "inserters iterate all the slots all the time" problem? Are loaders also affected?
Basically any time anything interacts with a chest it needs to find a free/full slot. And the more slots there are the more candidates have to be checked.

https://mulark.github.io/tests/test-000 ... 00004.html
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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by Itemfinder » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:16 am

Wide buffer chests must cause more UPS load than a row of chests, right? With inserters, and loaders? Or only Miniloaders?

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by Optera » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:02 pm

Itemfinder wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:16 am
Wide buffer chests must cause more UPS load than a row of chests, right? With inserters, and loaders? Or only Miniloaders?
Practically it's negligible.
It only matters for education on internal mechanics or when placing thousands of very big warehouses.

Each Miniloader has 2 inserter, each inserter, in worse case scenario, iterates all slots in a chest to find a place to put or take items.
Six 48 slot steel chests with 2 inserters each produce 6*48*2 = 576 slot checks
A 6 wide chest with same capacity has 288 slots. With the same 12 inserters will create 288*12 = 3456 checks.

I wouldn't optimize for this. There are much lower hanging fruit for optimization.
- replace recipes with batch recipes, doing 1 recipe 100 times is less efficient than doing 1 recipe taking 100 times as long
- replace crafting machines with fewer higher tier ones
- replace pipes with modded higher throughput pipes with much longer underground distances

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Re: [MOD 0.16 / 0.17] Loader Redux 1.4.9

Post by danyax » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:06 am

"Failed to load mods: Error while running setup for entity prototype "picker--cheats-super-loader" (loader): Entity must produce no item result or mine to an item that isn't hidden when next_upgrade is set."

Mods to be disabled:
PickerCheats

This happens when angel+bob + LoaderRedux + PickerCheats mods enabled, Picker Cheats Recipes option not set.

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