PyRO Chains Analysis

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by mxpal » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:56 pm

holy **** thats some crazy excel work there, are you a programmer irl?

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:21 pm

HA! Yes, but I'm not very good at spreadsheets or I wouldn't have to re-jigger everything when py changes the recipes :)

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by thatguyagain » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:24 pm

Wow this is impressive! Thanks for doing all this, hopefully it helps py balance the mods more easily.
It saves me having to go fight with helmod after every update to check too!

Do you have plans to try to do the chains with modules? Specifically full level 3 prod modules on everything that accepts them. While unrealistic it would help to compare the "maximum" to the "base" values.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:34 pm

Nope, like my username implies I'm doing 20% of the effort for 80% of the gain and stopping :) In seriousness I think helmod is better for this type of task I'm just trying to prevent the need to use helmod to figure out what you need to helmod.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:35 pm

thatguyagain wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:24 pm
Wow this is impressive! Thanks for doing all this, hopefully it helps py balance the mods more easily.
It saves me having to go fight with helmod after every update to check too!

Do you have plans to try to do the chains with modules? Specifically full level 3 prod modules on everything that accepts them. While unrealistic it would help to compare the "maximum" to the "base" values.
there is mo productivity on ores because it would make infinite loops here and there so they were removed

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:20 pm

Got an update. Copper, Iron, Lead, Aluminum, Steel have been buffed! Chromium has been nerfed! Updating the front page (Won't update descriptions again until Py slows down with the balances :) )

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:34 pm

TwentyEighty wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:20 pm
Got an update. Copper, Iron, Lead, Aluminum, Steel have been buffed! Chromium has been nerfed! Updating the front page (Won't update descriptions again until Py slows down with the balances :) )
i did some math on the tin chain and for some reason on paper i get huge values

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 pm

Take a picture and send it to me maybe?

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:55 pm

TwentyEighty wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 pm
Take a picture and send it to me maybe?
ok but in what way should i send it? do you have discord?
and email?

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:57 pm

TwentyEighty#3487

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:07 am

Updated on first post.

Aluminum uses less alamac! Nickel uses less sulfuric! Nickel Buff! Glass Buff! Tin Tier3/4 Buff! Tin green science level went down

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by pyanodon » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:02 am

Thanks for your work..helped a lot in the balances...Enjoy!
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:06 am

Thanks for the balances... and OMG thanks for the molten nichrome just now! We can use oleochemicals for many more things now

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by mxpal » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:16 pm

pyanodon u should award a medal to this gentleman here
how about "most contributing player"?

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:49 pm

Updated with hotair recipes, plus duralumin and steel. One thing that jumps out is that hotair-steel may be bugged, it's giving 5x the pyRO value

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by pyanodon » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:45 pm

mxpal wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:16 pm
pyanodon u should award a medal to this gentleman here
how about "most contributing player"?

aw thank you!
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by Openhand » Sun May 05, 2019 6:49 pm

I'm trying to calculate the efficiency of the iron processing chains from pyro, but my head hurts.

Saw this and my head hurts still.

Efficiency is basically plates / ore, that you are using so the first step is 12,5% efficiency and that is 1 plate from 8 ores (1/8).

All is fine and dandy but the moment byproducts comes into the picture it becomes much more complicated.

You know a good way to calculate ore efficiency for iron processing? (all the chains).

I stopped when it come to processing iron pulp-01, i'm not sure where to put the efficiency from that, make the building that produces it give more efficiency? or add it seperately? (how?)

My calcsheet is pretty clean in someplaces but it is getting messy :(

can easily see the efficiency gains from 12,5% to 20% to 72% to 180% (processing byproducts from Automated Screener
doubles this to 360%), i sorta want to see the efficiency i would gain step by step for each process and byproduct included and option to exclude a byproduct but its weird giving byproducts a "cost" for their production processing because they don't really have a cost, its free stuff, but i have to have a result and a cost for efficiency calc and i put them both on 0,5 and 0,5 so i get a neutral efficiency effect at least. (0,5/0,5=1) and just hard code an efficiency modifier to get what i want without corrupting the gain or cost of some process.

Step 1 would be efficiency 1,5
Step 2 would be 1,33 (4/3) (because of diminishing returns) for the process but this all gets multiplied together with a product function (tho i got rid of that and do it step by step instead to see the incremental gains)

Why don't pyanodon simply have efficiency grapth for process chains? there is plate yields but i'm not sure i understand that, is it just what you get from one process or something?

I just need the efficiency, with that i can calculate throughput pretty easily or just compare efficiency of different chains.

I love it when mods devs put efficiency stat on their buildings, its so helpful to just have there and it is sorely missing when it isn't there.

I guess it might be too complicated if you also consider mods and beacons.

So either i continue doing things like i'm doing them now, or i start to try and simulate what X amount of ores would give, then i would have a clear target to compare things to, especially if it is possible to treat byproducts by several different methods with different efficiencies (not sure that is the case with pyro tho).

Jig has a process which gives 1 iron concentrate and cost 100 iron pulp 01, then in the ball mill you get 1 iron dust concentrate and 0,3 iron ore dust from that but i had to divide the cost between the two or else it would make the efficiency calc wrong.

So the whole concept of a cost for byproducts is probably wrong, maybe i should just make byproducts strictly efficiency modifiers for buildings(processes), making them more efficient depending on how many byproducts you process.

My head is imploding and its sunday, feels like i'm "wasting" my time doing calc sheets when i could be playing factorio instead... but DANG i need those efficiency stats!

You have plates/ore, the same as efficiency, maybe i'll just trust those instead, sorta don't understand it fully though because it is formulated kinda weird in comparison imo.

It seems you have done it in a very different way, using addition and substraction, i don't use that at all, it is purely efficiency based and just multiply the efficiencies together to get the total efficiency for the chain.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by mikes61293 » Tue May 14, 2019 4:29 pm

It looks like turning your unslimed iron into pulp and processing it into high grade iron is never worth it. I think the chain should be balanced such that converting your unslimed iron is a marginal increase in efficiency if you're smelting high grade iron (tier 3.2) and a decent increase with sinter iron (tier 4.2).

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:15 pm

mikes61293 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:29 pm
It looks like turning your unslimed iron into pulp and processing it into high grade iron is never worth it. I think the chain should be balanced such that converting your unslimed iron is a marginal increase in efficiency if you're smelting high grade iron (tier 3.2) and a decent increase with sinter iron (tier 4.2).
no since it would enable loops of iron and py said he doesnt want loops
not to mention that then people would get iron from oxide mostly

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by mikes61293 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:41 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:15 pm
mikes61293 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:29 pm
It looks like turning your unslimed iron into pulp and processing it into high grade iron is never worth it. I think the chain should be balanced such that converting your unslimed iron is a marginal increase in efficiency if you're smelting high grade iron (tier 3.2) and a decent increase with sinter iron (tier 4.2).
no since it would enable loops of iron and py said he doesnt want loops
not to mention that then people would get iron from oxide mostly
Iron already loops at the iron pulp 5 -> iron pulp 6 step by creating more iron pulp 2. If you remove iron pulp 2 as a byproduct from that recipe and increase the ratio of iron pulp 6 -> iron pulp 7, you'd increase the viability of that whole chain and it wouldn't loop. The whole chain would split at the classify iron ore dust step and then converge at the iron pulp 7 -> high grade iron step. If turning unslimed iron into iron pulp and processing it is always worse than just smelting the unslimed iron, why even have that chain?

Essentially I just want the highlighted section of the chart below to be worth doing.
Iron Pulp Chain 2.jpg
Iron Pulp Chain 2.jpg (1.31 MiB) Viewed 168 times

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