[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[bobingabout]

So are you saying basically that you don't bring turrets along when attacking a nest? Even to create a safe run-to spot? My tactic was usually to put down a small line of turrets and then rush in to see if I could at least take one spawner down before having to retreat to the turret line and then try again. But without even that to run to, success seems doubtful.

That is correct.

As others have also shared, there's often not a need for a safe spot if you're well equipped for the task at hand. The rockets for nests/worms and flamethrower for hordes handles most of the work. Other weapons can assist when biters slip through the flames at low HP, but always prioritize hitting nests with rockets so the horde continues to shrink. Worms are a lower priority since their projectiles can be dodged and they can't chase you, unless they're directly in the way to the next nest.

The car is also very handy for hit and run assaults. Hop out and rocket what you can, then hop back in the car and shoot down whatever is chasing you. Once the followers are dead, return for another round of nest sniping while remaining careful about getting too close to the worms. Avoid being stationary or driving a straight line so their projectiles won't have a chance to hit you. Bring repair packs should the biters hit the car so you can keep up the harassment.

Also, don't neglect getting the cobalt armour. It's very robust and will increase your survival better than power armour (without shields) due to its high resistances. It's also very easy to obtain well before power armour, so it will likely be your primary protection for a long time.

Best of luck to you in your fight. Just avoid falling back into old habits and keep trying different ideas should you be overwhelmed. You'll get the hang of it eventually.

Just wanted to give you an update on how things are going with the war vs the biters. I noticed that rockets are fairly late on the tech tree. There are also Bob's rockets which are even later on the tree. Still, rockets are not an option at all until ater you get oil. Likewise, Landmines are out of our reach at the moment, but we've got to clear some decent sized nests parked near our perimeter. I really don't see any way of doing this other than sniper turret creep. We actually got the whole base munched and overrun and had to load from an autosave 20 minute prior to focus entirely on turret and bullet construction. Our starter iron is running low, so it is starting to look pretty desperate as we try hard to push for a nearby rich iron patch that will need a train to tap into.

So while the arsenal you suggest may be useful, I think it's too little too late due to the position on the tech tree. What do you suggest?

Sniper turrets are good. if you can't afford all the iron, try laser turrets and flame thrower turrets.

if you don't have access to oil yet, you're probably not ready to start wiping out bases, concentrate on researching and setting up basic oil, and aim to reduce pollution generation.

[BlueTemplar]

I really don't see any way of doing this other than sniper turret creep. We actually got the whole base munched and overrun and had to load from an autosave 20 minute prior to focus entirely on turret and bullet construction. Our starter iron is running low, so it is starting to look pretty desperate as we try hard to push for a nearby rich iron patch that will need a train to tap into.

Sniper turrets hardly use any ammo, and are pretty OP overall - sounds like you've been using iron on something else ?

So while the arsenal you suggest may be useful, I think it's too little too late due to the position on the tech tree. What do you suggest?

Have you never looked at the military tab before? The reason turret creep is entirely unnecessary is because there's an entire arsenal at your disposal. Rocket launchers which dominate nests and worms, landmines and grenades to keep waves at bay when you're advancing, and vehicles not only boost attack damage but also provide armour and crushing capability. The car also allows you to hit and run without taking any damage if you're not careless.

I highlighted the pre-oil weapons.

[mrvn]

I really don't see any way of doing this other than sniper turret creep. We actually got the whole base munched and overrun and had to load from an autosave 20 minute prior to focus entirely on turret and bullet construction. Our starter iron is running low, so it is starting to look pretty desperate as we try hard to push for a nearby rich iron patch that will need a train to tap into.

Sniper turrets hardly use any ammo, and are pretty OP overall - sounds like you've been using iron on something else ?

So while the arsenal you suggest may be useful, I think it's too little too late due to the position on the tech tree. What do you suggest?

Have you never looked at the military tab before? The reason turret creep is entirely unnecessary is because there's an entire arsenal at your disposal. Rocket launchers which dominate nests and worms, landmines and grenades to keep waves at bay when you're advancing, and vehicles not only boost attack damage but also provide armour and crushing capability. The car also allows you to hit and run without taking any damage if you're not careless.

I highlighted the pre-oil weapons.

To be fair all the military tech need research. When you are getting overrun by aliens then it is too late to research military stuff. One has to stay ahead of the curve with military research or things quickly become desperate. One might have to go back more than 20 minutes and switch to a war footing early.

[BlueTemplar]

Well, if you're playing with mods, you likely have some basic knowledge of Factorio's mechanics, so you should be aware that it's a good idea to :
- Add some defenses before (or shortly after) massively expanding production and the resulting pollution cloud.
- Try to get Military 2 (20 R&G) or Physical Damage 1 (100R) researched before Red biters show up.
- Try to get oil before Blue biters show up. (Or sniper turrets in Bob's case - no oil needed, and only 25 MilSci !)

[RocketManChronicles]

Well, if you're playing with mods, you likely have some basic knowledge of Factorio's mechanics, so you should be aware that it's a good idea to :
- Add some defenses before (or shortly after) massively expanding production and the resulting pollution cloud.
- Try to get Military 2 (20 R&G) or Physical Damage 1 (100R) researched before Red biters show up.
- Try to get oil before Blue biters show up. (Or sniper turrets in Bob's case - no oil needed, and only 25 MilSci !)

But... if you're like me, you also play with the MSP 30 Science Pack mod and on Deathworld Marathon, the starting resources are just not enough. Of course, I am insane on these settings.

If anyone wants advice when playing with biters (even the harshest and most difficult like me), my two cents is to go straight for military science right as you finish automating green science. Get it going immediately and using the research to stay ahead of the evolution. I try to get flamethrower turrets before the big biters arrive. Sniper turrets work too. However, if things are bleak, the best bare-minimum I suggest is driving cars loaded with AP rounds and grenades. Never slow down, drive in circles, and hold the space bar down while also throwing grenades out at the biters chasing you. Do quick drive-bys of the nests, taking down the spawners over the worms, just be sure to not drive in a straight line and not over the acidic worm spit on the ground.

[BlueTemplar]

If anyone wants advice when playing with biters (even the harshest and most difficult like me), my two cents is to go straight for military science right as you finish automating green science. Get it going immediately and using the research to stay ahead of the evolution.

I'd even suggest to hand-craft the first new military tiers as much as you can (if not playing with increased science costs), especially for those fairly cheap Mil2 and Sniper Turrets...

[Airat9000]

hello questions
who in code generate in entity ores ?

[Recon777]

Well, if you're playing with mods, you likely have some basic knowledge of Factorio's mechanics, so you should be aware that it's a good idea to :
- Add some defenses before (or shortly after) massively expanding production and the resulting pollution cloud.
- Try to get Military 2 (20 R&G) or Physical Damage 1 (100R) researched before Red biters show up.
- Try to get oil before Blue biters show up. (Or sniper turrets in Bob's case - no oil needed, and only 25 MilSci !)

It's not for a lack of understanding in the game. I'm talking about getting overrun within the first four hours by biters with over a thousand hitpoints. Rampant AI with the new enemies enabled, specifically. Grenades aren't going to cut it. Only turrets work and so you have to bring a bunch with you and just spam them around the large nests with autofill in order to have even a hope. And even then, they will almost surely destroy all those turrets during the fight. Personal weapons? Yeah no, those are useless vs this kind of enemy.

We have since restarted with the evolution factor scaled back to default and Rampant's new enemies disabled with Bob's reenabled.

[bobingabout]

hello questions
who in code generate in entity ores ?

resources

[Pawz]

It was an interesting start. Lets just say that having your oil underneath a large biter patch makes things... challenging.

Also Sniper turrets ended up being a lot less effective because we were using Swarmageddon, which splits biters into smaller biters based on their HP -- sooo the big guys would get killed by snipers and spawn lots of little guys that would overrun the turrets!

Overall effect was that we spent a LOT more iron on bullets than intended, and ran short trying to reach a long distance (Railworld settings) iron ore spot.


The most effective nest-clearing tactic is still to go out with 50 turrets and auto-fill, and plonk 'em all over the enemy bases.

Upon final review, I think it's a little disappointing that shotguns really don't do group control nearly as well as they should - a weapon that could really use a looking at, tbh. Something with that slow a firing rate should really obliterate everything in front of it.

[Airat9000]

hello questions
who in code generate in entity ores ?

resources

please example code?

[bobingabout]

hello questions
who in code generate in entity ores ?

resources

please example code?

take a look at demo-resources.lua in the base game. do that.
don't look into how it works, you won't understand it. I barely understand any of it.

[BlueTemplar]

Well, if you're playing with mods, you likely have some basic knowledge of Factorio's mechanics, so you should be aware that it's a good idea to :
- Add some defenses before (or shortly after) massively expanding production and the resulting pollution cloud.
- Try to get Military 2 (20 R&G) or Physical Damage 1 (100R) researched before Red biters show up.
- Try to get oil before Blue biters show up. (Or sniper turrets in Bob's case - no oil needed, and only 25 MilSci !)

It's not for a lack of understanding in the game. I'm talking about getting overrun within the first four hours by biters with over a thousand hitpoints. Rampant AI with the new enemies enabled, specifically. Grenades aren't going to cut it. Only turrets work and so you have to bring a bunch with you and just spam them around the large nests with autofill in order to have even a hope. And even then, they will almost surely destroy all those turrets during the fight. Personal weapons? Yeah no, those are useless vs this kind of enemy.

We have since restarted with the evolution factor scaled back to default and Rampant's new enemies disabled with Bob's reenabled.

Well, maybe then you should have started with that, or did you expect us to guess it ?
Rampant uses its own way to spawn biters to attack you (and defend nests), that is not so dependent on pollution.
And if you're using Rampant's Enemies (rather than Bob's), why are you even having this conversation in this thread?
(Also, aren't you supposed to use Rampant's Arsenal against those?)

[Airat9000]

hello questions
who in code generate in entity ores ?

resources

please example code?

take a look at demo-resources.lua in the base game. do that.
don't look into how it works, you won't understand it. I barely understand any of it.

not work!!!

2019-04-02_22-14-51.png (1.17 MiB) Viewed 5413 times

[RocketManChronicles]

Well, if you're playing with mods, you likely have some basic knowledge of Factorio's mechanics, so you should be aware that it's a good idea to :
- Add some defenses before (or shortly after) massively expanding production and the resulting pollution cloud.
- Try to get Military 2 (20 R&G) or Physical Damage 1 (100R) researched before Red biters show up.
- Try to get oil before Blue biters show up. (Or sniper turrets in Bob's case - no oil needed, and only 25 MilSci !)

It's not for a lack of understanding in the game. I'm talking about getting overrun within the first four hours by biters with over a thousand hitpoints. Rampant AI with the new enemies enabled, specifically. Grenades aren't going to cut it. Only turrets work and so you have to bring a bunch with you and just spam them around the large nests with autofill in order to have even a hope. And even then, they will almost surely destroy all those turrets during the fight. Personal weapons? Yeah no, those are useless vs this kind of enemy.

We have since restarted with the evolution factor scaled back to default and Rampant's new enemies disabled with Bob's reenabled.

Your mindset is still "stuck" in turret creep mode. The problem is that the enemies changed and you haven't. Just going with vanilla enemies for a moment, there are changes that make turrets very weak near nests. The two biggest things that affect this are the Spitters and the Worms spits. Before 0.17, they just hit and did damage. Now, 0.17+ not only do they hit, but their spit stays and does damage over time. So when a turret is hit by a spitter, it doesn't just take damage, it now takes damage and even more damage over time. The stationary nature of turrets makes them very weak when they are not in a permanent wall setting. Now you add Rampant and Bob's enemies and now you have enemies with various resistances to physical damage, plus added damages that you do not have resistance to. Second, it is most definitely how you fight. You even admitted to move slower when firing your gun. Yes, this is true and a game mechanic. But you cannot just walk in a line continuously firing. You have to play dodgeball now. Follow the 5 D's of dodgeball: dodge, dip, duck, dive, and dodge. Move right, burst fire, move up, throw grenade, move right, spurt flamethrower, move left, burst fire, move down, fire rocket, etc. Your APM (actions per minute) needs to be very high. The key is to keep moving, changing weapons, avoiding the new spit and the puddles left behind. If a lot of biters start getting really close, run out a little and start lobbing grenades behind you. Handheld weapons definitely can handle the enemies and nests. And even keep combat robots with you, they really put you at an advantage, since the worms and spitters are so distracted by them. You can have a safe zone to run to that is built up with several turrets if you want, but to purely turret spam and creep is foolish with the new enemy mechanics.

[Recon777]

Well, if you're playing with mods, you likely have some basic knowledge of Factorio's mechanics, so you should be aware that it's a good idea to :
- Add some defenses before (or shortly after) massively expanding production and the resulting pollution cloud.
- Try to get Military 2 (20 R&G) or Physical Damage 1 (100R) researched before Red biters show up.
- Try to get oil before Blue biters show up. (Or sniper turrets in Bob's case - no oil needed, and only 25 MilSci !)

It's not for a lack of understanding in the game. I'm talking about getting overrun within the first four hours by biters with over a thousand hitpoints. Rampant AI with the new enemies enabled, specifically. Grenades aren't going to cut it. Only turrets work and so you have to bring a bunch with you and just spam them around the large nests with autofill in order to have even a hope. And even then, they will almost surely destroy all those turrets during the fight. Personal weapons? Yeah no, those are useless vs this kind of enemy.

We have since restarted with the evolution factor scaled back to default and Rampant's new enemies disabled with Bob's reenabled.

Your mindset is still "stuck" in turret creep mode. The problem is that the enemies changed and you haven't. Just going with vanilla enemies for a moment, there are changes that make turrets very weak near nests. The two biggest things that affect this are the Spitters and the Worms spits. Before 0.17, they just hit and did damage. Now, 0.17+ not only do they hit, but their spit stays and does damage over time. So when a turret is hit by a spitter, it doesn't just take damage, it now takes damage and even more damage over time. The stationary nature of turrets makes them very weak when they are not in a permanent wall setting. Now you add Rampant and Bob's enemies and now you have enemies with various resistances to physical damage, plus added damages that you do not have resistance to. Second, it is most definitely how you fight. You even admitted to move slower when firing your gun. Yes, this is true and a game mechanic. But you cannot just walk in a line continuously firing. You have to play dodgeball now. Follow the 5 D's of dodgeball: dodge, dip, duck, dive, and dodge. Move right, burst fire, move up, throw grenade, move right, spurt flamethrower, move left, burst fire, move down, fire rocket, etc. Your APM (actions per minute) needs to be very high. The key is to keep moving, changing weapons, avoiding the new spit and the puddles left behind. If a lot of biters start getting really close, run out a little and start lobbing grenades behind you. Handheld weapons definitely can handle the enemies and nests. And even keep combat robots with you, they really put you at an advantage, since the worms and spitters are so distracted by them. You can have a safe zone to run to that is built up with several turrets if you want, but to purely turret spam and creep is foolish with the new enemy mechanics.

Again, I'm talking about the first four hours of the game. Combat robots? Really? This is a pre-oil problem. when all you've got for science is the first two + military. And I'm talking about swarms numbering in the hundreds.

As for "high APM" I just can't do that. I've never been that kind of gamer. I'd rather have over-effective personal arsenal and a clear advantage as a single person in the field, and then have the real challenge be in what happens to my outposts where I can't be there all the time.

[MageKing17]

If that's not the way you want to play, why are you using Rampant at all?

[bobingabout]

hello questions
who in code generate in entity ores ?

resources

please example code?

take a look at demo-resources.lua in the base game. do that.
don't look into how it works, you won't understand it. I barely understand any of it.

not work!!!
2019-04-02_22-14-51.png

What did you try to do?

[Airat9000]

resources

please example code?

take a look at demo-resources.lua in the base game. do that.
don't look into how it works, you won't understand it. I barely understand any of it.

not work!!!
2019-04-02_22-14-51.png

What did you try to do?

I wrote already - to increase the wealth of resources at the beginning before generating the map ..
It is necessary to raise the number, but I don’t see where to change the code.

[BlueTemplar]

The problem is that the enemies changed and you haven't. Just going with vanilla enemies for a moment
[...]
Now you add Rampant and Bob's enemies and now you have enemies with various resistances to physical damage, plus added damages that you do not have resistance to.

Except he's not even talking about Bob's Enemies, which AFAIK (spawners & worms aside), only show up after 50% evo. He's talking about Rampant's Enemies.

, there are changes that make turrets very weak near nests. The two biggest things that affect this are the Spitters and the Worms spits. Before 0.17, they just hit and did damage. Now, 0.17+ not only do they hit, but their spit stays and does damage over time. So when a turret is hit by a spitter, it doesn't just take damage, it now takes damage and even more damage over time. The stationary nature of turrets makes them very weak when they are not in a permanent wall setting.

No they don't - turrets seem to be immune to acid puddle damage (over time).
(They do get affected by splash damage...)