[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[bobingabout]

What's the use of the different ires of boilers now?
Re: [0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion


A boiler mk1 consumes 1.8MW of fuel to produce 1,8MW of energy. A boiler mk2 consumes 3.6MW of fuel to produce 3.6MW of energy. So mk2 replaces 2 mk1 of each. But it's far cheaper to build 2 mk1. So unless space is extremely limited this seems like a waste of resources. Where is the efficiency gain the boilers + steam engines had previously?

Or is the pollution level supposed to be the incentive to upgrade boilers now?

Space is the main incentive. Pollution level is also a factor. Honestly, with 100% efficiency across the board, it's actually quite annoying, starting at less than 100% made things interesting.

[MageKing17]

What's the use of the different ires of boilers now?
Re: [0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion


A boiler mk1 consumes 1.8MW of fuel to produce 1,8MW of energy. A boiler mk2 consumes 3.6MW of fuel to produce 3.6MW of energy. So mk2 replaces 2 mk1 of each. But it's far cheaper to build 2 mk1. So unless space is extremely limited this seems like a waste of resources. Where is the efficiency gain the boilers + steam engines had previously?

Or is the pollution level supposed to be the incentive to upgrade boilers now?

Space is the main incentive. Pollution level is also a factor. Honestly, with 100% efficiency across the board, it's actually quite annoying, starting at less than 100% made things interesting.

You could make the boiler progression go above 100% efficiency instead?

[bobingabout]

What's the use of the different ires of boilers now?
Re: [0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion


A boiler mk1 consumes 1.8MW of fuel to produce 1,8MW of energy. A boiler mk2 consumes 3.6MW of fuel to produce 3.6MW of energy. So mk2 replaces 2 mk1 of each. But it's far cheaper to build 2 mk1. So unless space is extremely limited this seems like a waste of resources. Where is the efficiency gain the boilers + steam engines had previously?

Or is the pollution level supposed to be the incentive to upgrade boilers now?

Space is the main incentive. Pollution level is also a factor. Honestly, with 100% efficiency across the board, it's actually quite annoying, starting at less than 100% made things interesting.

You could make the boiler progression go above 100% efficiency instead?

I don't like the idea of more than 100% efficiency, it makes you get more out than you put in.

[MageKing17]

What's the use of the different ires of boilers now?
Re: [0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion


A boiler mk1 consumes 1.8MW of fuel to produce 1,8MW of energy. A boiler mk2 consumes 3.6MW of fuel to produce 3.6MW of energy. So mk2 replaces 2 mk1 of each. But it's far cheaper to build 2 mk1. So unless space is extremely limited this seems like a waste of resources. Where is the efficiency gain the boilers + steam engines had previously?

Or is the pollution level supposed to be the incentive to upgrade boilers now?

Space is the main incentive. Pollution level is also a factor. Honestly, with 100% efficiency across the board, it's actually quite annoying, starting at less than 100% made things interesting.

You could make the boiler progression go above 100% efficiency instead?

I don't like the idea of more than 100% efficiency, it makes you get more out than you put in.

Yes, but what's really the difference between 8 MJ of coal at 60% efficiency and 4 MJ of coal at 120% efficiency? You can just treat it as "120% of regular boiler efficiency".

Of course, you could always double the fuel value and give Mk1 boilers 50% efficiency again...

[BlueTemplar]

Yes, that last one !
(But maybe don't double the fuel values ?)

[mrvn]

What's the use of the different ires of boilers now?
Re: [0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion


A boiler mk1 consumes 1.8MW of fuel to produce 1,8MW of energy. A boiler mk2 consumes 3.6MW of fuel to produce 3.6MW of energy. So mk2 replaces 2 mk1 of each. But it's far cheaper to build 2 mk1. So unless space is extremely limited this seems like a waste of resources. Where is the efficiency gain the boilers + steam engines had previously?

Or is the pollution level supposed to be the incentive to upgrade boilers now?

Space is the main incentive. Pollution level is also a factor. Honestly, with 100% efficiency across the board, it's actually quite annoying, starting at less than 100% made things interesting.

You could make the boiler progression go above 100% efficiency instead?

I don't like the idea of more than 100% efficiency, it makes you get more out than you put in.

Yes, but what's really the difference between 8 MJ of coal at 60% efficiency and 4 MJ of coal at 120% efficiency? You can just treat it as "120% of regular boiler efficiency".

Of course, you could always double the fuel value and give Mk1 boilers 50% efficiency again...

Or lower the efficiency of steam engines. The info says Steamengine mk1 has 100% efficiency already. Would be more logical to have that less than perfect and increase efficiency with each tire. At least to me it's more logical for the steam engine to improve with more tech than the boiler. Boilers just heat water. With steam engines you can use multiple stages using the exhaust from the first stage to power the second, each with lower temperature. And with later tires having higher temperature steam it makes sense that you could have more stages, improving the efficiency.

[bobingabout]

Space is the main incentive. Pollution level is also a factor. Honestly, with 100% efficiency across the board, it's actually quite annoying, starting at less than 100% made things interesting.

You could make the boiler progression go above 100% efficiency instead?

I don't like the idea of more than 100% efficiency, it makes you get more out than you put in.

Yes, but what's really the difference between 8 MJ of coal at 60% efficiency and 4 MJ of coal at 120% efficiency? You can just treat it as "120% of regular boiler efficiency".

Of course, you could always double the fuel value and give Mk1 boilers 50% efficiency again...

Or lower the efficiency of steam engines. The info says Steamengine mk1 has 100% efficiency already. Would be more logical to have that less than perfect and increase efficiency with each tire. At least to me it's more logical for the steam engine to improve with more tech than the boiler. Boilers just heat water. With steam engines you can use multiple stages using the exhaust from the first stage to power the second, each with lower temperature. And with later tires having higher temperature steam it makes sense that you could have more stages, improving the efficiency.

the biggest issue with playing with steam engines is that it would most likely upset the ratios for boilers and steam engines. it would take a lot of number crunching to keep a 2:1 ratio.

But I'm not against this, I'd gladly change things to be something similar to the old 50% to 96% ratios they used to be.

undoing the fuel value changes is something I'd consider too, I don't like the new numbers, since the old values were very nice real world MJ/kg, for liquids anyway. Aparantly if you assume a unit of coal is a kg, it should have about 30MJ of energy, not 4MJ. but I based everything on fluid to solid fuel conversions. MORE RESEARCH!

[Recon777]

Where did you get the idea that the flamethrower was nerfed ?

Because you used to be able to walk into any sized nest and just spin around, creating a tornado of fire that would demolish EVERYTHING in seconds. It was the only weapon you needed. So of course they nerfed it. Fire is not nearly as effective as it once was.

[Light]

So are you saying basically that you don't bring turrets along when attacking a nest? Even to create a safe run-to spot? My tactic was usually to put down a small line of turrets and then rush in to see if I could at least take one spawner down before having to retreat to the turret line and then try again. But without even that to run to, success seems doubtful.

That is correct.

As others have also shared, there's often not a need for a safe spot if you're well equipped for the task at hand. The rockets for nests/worms and flamethrower for hordes handles most of the work. Other weapons can assist when biters slip through the flames at low HP, but always prioritize hitting nests with rockets so the horde continues to shrink. Worms are a lower priority since their projectiles can be dodged and they can't chase you, unless they're directly in the way to the next nest.

The car is also very handy for hit and run assaults. Hop out and rocket what you can, then hop back in the car and shoot down whatever is chasing you. Once the followers are dead, return for another round of nest sniping while remaining careful about getting too close to the worms. Avoid being stationary or driving a straight line so their projectiles won't have a chance to hit you. Bring repair packs should the biters hit the car so you can keep up the harassment.

Also, don't neglect getting the cobalt armour. It's very robust and will increase your survival better than power armour (without shields) due to its high resistances. It's also very easy to obtain well before power armour, so it will likely be your primary protection for a long time.

Best of luck to you in your fight. Just avoid falling back into old habits and keep trying different ideas should you be overwhelmed. You'll get the hang of it eventually.

[orzelek]

Are you planning to update reinforced walls graphics?

Old ones look pretty poor compared to new vanilla one and they don't seem to support additional modifications like wall merging when built 2x2 etc.

So now I need to choose between weak wall and ugly wall..

Actually reinforced wall seems to be a bit of a hybrid mix:

Wall.jpg (15.04 KiB) Viewed 4311 times

[bobingabout]

Are you planning to update reinforced walls graphics?

Old ones look pretty poor compared to new vanilla one and they don't seem to support additional modifications like wall merging when built 2x2 etc.

So now I need to choose between weak wall and ugly wall..

Actually reinforced wall seems to be a bit of a hybrid mix:
Wall.jpg

I decided to keep the older wall, as to make it look more different.

[bobingabout]

I was just thinking of the situation where low power causes your electric inserters feeding fuel into boilers slow down, etc, causing lower power, causing a full black out, arguing that in this case, you should use a burner inserter.

However, the higher end boilers (MK5 for example), if you're using coal, they can't insert the fuel fast enough.

So, 2 ideas.
1. a burner inserter MK2, or Stack burner inserter. basically, a burner powered inserter that can shovel coal faster.
2. An inserter with Primary input priority. The main reason why burner inserters are prefered is because electric powered inserters slow down during low power situations as the energy is shared across your grid. This could be solved if your coal shovellers had a higher priority.

[mrvn]

I was just thinking of the situation where low power causes your electric inserters feeding fuel into boilers slow down, etc, causing lower power, causing a full black out, arguing that in this case, you should use a burner inserter.

However, the higher end boilers (MK5 for example), if you're using coal, they can't insert the fuel fast enough.

So, 2 ideas.
1. a burner inserter MK2, or Stack burner inserter. basically, a burner powered inserter that can shovel coal faster.
2. An inserter with Primary input priority. The main reason why burner inserters are prefered is because electric powered inserters slow down during low power situations as the energy is shared across your grid. This could be solved if your coal shovellers had a higher priority.

3. Use 3 burner inserters per boiler.
4. Use a burner inserter and a fast/stack inserter. The burner keeps some power so the other inserter can catch up when you stop overdrawing power.
5. Use 2 inserter with a 90° arc or even smaller. At MK5 levels I assume you have all the adjustable inserter stuff so you would bet 18 times the speed of a normal burner inserter.

But overall that doesn't really help. The coal miners are also slowing down and then you just run into a lack of coal a bit later.

The way to solve this is to have the coal miners and inserters on a different electrical network with it's own power generator.

[BlueTemplar]

You can use burner coal drills. (But yeah, higher tiers of burner inserters and drills would be great !)
Except, since this is Bob's mods that we're talking about, you're at least as likely to use wood greenhouses for your power !

So, yeah, dedicated power for your power plant is the way to go (and in vanilla too).

[bobingabout]

3. Use 3 burner inserters per boiler.
4. Use a burner inserter and a fast/stack inserter. The burner keeps some power so the other inserter can catch up when you stop overdrawing power.
5. Use 2 inserter with a 90° arc or even smaller. At MK5 levels I assume you have all the adjustable inserter stuff so you would bet 18 times the speed of a normal burner inserter.

I keep forgetting that the boilers are bigger now since 0.15, and that you can easily have more than 1 inserter per boiler.
And yes, 90 degree inserters would be at least twice as fast, and you could do all kinds of other combinations too. even mixing burner with regular.

The way to solve this is to have the coal miners and inserters on a different electrical network with it's own power generator.

or have both miners and inserters with a primary power input, so they have energy priority.



Honestly, I think a good option not currently available would be if a script can change the priority of an entity's electric energy source. that way you can change specific inserters to primary, secondary or tertiary as required. same with other things too.

You just have to keep in mind that anything with a tertiary priority cannot interact with anything else on tertiary priority. this is to keep accumulators from charging themselves and each other, so an inserter with tertiary priority running on a solar/accumulator system will turn off at night, or a steam engine set to tertiary just can't power them at all.


Higher tier burner equipment is something I've been thinking about too. not just inserters, but also mining drills, assembling machines etc.
Steam power equipment too, I mean, that's a thing that we can do now.

[BlueTemplar]

Honestly, I think a good option not currently available would be if a script can change the priority of an entity's electric energy source. that way you can change specific inserters to primary, secondary or tertiary as required. same with other things too.

But the we won't have the need for Rube Goldberg-esque circuit setups !

[mrvn]

The way to solve this is to have the coal miners and inserters on a different electrical network with it's own power generator.

or have both miners and inserters with a primary power input, so they have energy priority.



Honestly, I think a good option not currently available would be if a script can change the priority of an entity's electric energy source. that way you can change specific inserters to primary, secondary or tertiary as required. same with other things too.

You just have to keep in mind that anything with a tertiary priority cannot interact with anything else on tertiary priority. this is to keep accumulators from charging themselves and each other, so an inserter with tertiary priority running on a solar/accumulator system will turn off at night, or a steam engine set to tertiary just can't power them at all.


Higher tier burner equipment is something I've been thinking about too. not just inserters, but also mining drills, assembling machines etc.
Steam power equipment too, I mean, that's a thing that we can do now.

If you change the priority for miners then the iron/copper/stone/... miners would also draw at that priority. Probably wouldn't matter much but worth considering.

Changing the priority per script would maybe solve this. on_entity_built could check if a miner was build over coal and then bump it's priority. Then again what if you switched to nuclear? Now coal mining is irrelevant and uranium miners need the priority. Of you stick with steam engines and the uranium is just for atom bombs.

I think there are too many play styles for anything but letting the user determine priorities.What I would like to see is an energy interface (maybe extend the power switch) that has priority settings for both sides saying at which priority energy is requested and provided.

[RocketManChronicles]

3. Use 3 burner inserters per boiler.
4. Use a burner inserter and a fast/stack inserter. The burner keeps some power so the other inserter can catch up when you stop overdrawing power.
5. Use 2 inserter with a 90° arc or even smaller. At MK5 levels I assume you have all the adjustable inserter stuff so you would bet 18 times the speed of a normal burner inserter.

I keep forgetting that the boilers are bigger now since 0.15, and that you can easily have more than 1 inserter per boiler.
And yes, 90 degree inserters would be at least twice as fast, and you could do all kinds of other combinations too. even mixing burner with regular.

The way to solve this is to have the coal miners and inserters on a different electrical network with it's own power generator.

or have both miners and inserters with a primary power input, so they have energy priority.



Honestly, I think a good option not currently available would be if a script can change the priority of an entity's electric energy source. that way you can change specific inserters to primary, secondary or tertiary as required. same with other things too.

You just have to keep in mind that anything with a tertiary priority cannot interact with anything else on tertiary priority. this is to keep accumulators from charging themselves and each other, so an inserter with tertiary priority running on a solar/accumulator system will turn off at night, or a steam engine set to tertiary just can't power them at all.


Higher tier burner equipment is something I've been thinking about too. not just inserters, but also mining drills, assembling machines etc.
Steam power equipment too, I mean, that's a thing that we can do now.

I see why you are thinking about this Bob. But I have not ever faced this problem, and it is because by the time I have mk5 boilers, I am usually at least using solid fuel. Enriched fuel blocks have been used more often than not for these high-tier boilers, and one inserter has no issue here. Maybe an idea is to limit mk5 (and maybe mk4) boilers to NOT use coal?


In the over-arching discussion here, I use power switches with network circuitry to control my base power loads if things get bad, or start looking worse. In the worse case scenario, the last stage in a series of shutdowns is to only have the fuel source and the power plant powered. I tend to keep a bank of accumulators on stand-by should the fuel really slow down. It is my last ditch effort to remain powered.

In general, I have the following stages in power down should I run low (I remove power for about 2 minutes before checking to turn back on):
Stage 1: Science Labs
Stage 2: Science Production
Stage 3: Mining Operations (only miners, even at outposts)
Stage 4: Main Base - Build Everything Production (aka "Mall")
Stage 5: Military Production (ammunitions and weapons/turrets)
Stage 6: Military Grand Operations (Logistics - includes robots repairing)
Stage 7: Military Power (Laser Turrets, Radars)
Stage 8: Power Plant Operations (only fuel source and powerplant powered)

Most of the time, if I were to run low on power, I never really surpass stage 3, as that stage is the greatest reduction in power usage next to military power. I spread the military out as much as possible, as it is a matter of life and death that your perimeter walls go down. You only hope that the non-powered turrets can hold long enough. Each stage is accompanied by a bank of accumulators; the type depends on the need. For example, the laser turrets using high power output accumulators to handle their demand. Only once, have I reached Stage 8, and that was in 0.15, where a neglect in U235 production led to an emergent power shutdown. I learned my lesson to not have nuclear relying on the same network it powers... (Also, learning to use nuclear for the first time). I now have backups of backups.

[bobingabout]

If you change the priority for miners then the iron/copper/stone/... miners would also draw at that priority. Probably wouldn't matter much but worth considering.

I was thinking it would be a separate mining drill, a duplicate that has this primary priority, so it wouldn't effect all mines.

Changing the priority per script would maybe solve this. on_entity_built could check if a miner was build over coal and then bump it's priority. Then again what if you switched to nuclear? Now coal mining is irrelevant and uranium miners need the priority. Of you stick with steam engines and the uranium is just for atom bombs.

if you can do it in a script, you can have a modded GUI that lets you choose the priority on whatever entity you want, it doesn't have to be automatic, the GUI could even just have options for "automatic, primary if on coal/uranium" and "force primary" options, similar to how my inserters pre-place GUI works.

[mrvn]

If you change the priority for miners then the iron/copper/stone/... miners would also draw at that priority. Probably wouldn't matter much but worth considering.

I was thinking it would be a separate mining drill, a duplicate that has this primary priority, so it wouldn't effect all mines.

Changing the priority per script would maybe solve this. on_entity_built could check if a miner was build over coal and then bump it's priority. Then again what if you switched to nuclear? Now coal mining is irrelevant and uranium miners need the priority. Of you stick with steam engines and the uranium is just for atom bombs.

if you can do it in a script, you can have a modded GUI that lets you choose the priority on whatever entity you want, it doesn't have to be automatic, the GUI could even just have options for "automatic, primary if on coal/uranium" and "force primary" options, similar to how my inserters pre-place GUI works.

Don't forget assemblers and ore crushers for when you make coke pellets by crushing coal for the extra fuel value. Or liquifiers when making carbon because one doesn't have coke pellets yet. Or many other power options. Basically you need that priority setting everywhere. That's why I think a modded inserter or mining drill with higher priority won't be a solution. Too many mods would have to add duplicate entities with higher priority. A modded GUI to change the priority would be the way to go there. Just make sure blueprints keep the setting.