[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[bobingabout]

Thank you Bob. Just started a new 0.17 modded play last night. My only question was with the cheaper steel option; when selected, does the smelting time adjust to match the number of iron plates in the recipe to maintain the constant throughput? Also, why go cheaper steel?

Yes.

I am also considering an alternate recipe, where you'd have to basically use several pieces of iron and some coal in a mixing furnace, but give a couple pieces of steel as a result, the quantities would be dependant on if cheaper steel is on or not.

[RocketManChronicles]

when selected, does the smelting time adjust to match the number of iron plates in the recipe to maintain the constant throughput? Also, why go cheaper steel?

Yes.
He has a lot of stuff that uses steel in greater quantities, like steel pipe and gears. If steel costs five iron they are expensive in the amounts used.

Well, I understand that. I play Death(Rail)world Marathon, where it costs 10 iron plates to make one steel over 35 seconds time (I think 32 now in 0.17). But if I select cheaper steel, I would not have to change the smelting arrays as long as the time to make the steel scales with the number of plates. Thinking of selecting this to give me more steel as I am barely clinging to life in my heavily modded early game. LOL

[orzelek]

Are you planning pollution updates to match 0.7.12 changes (pollution divided by 60)?

[bobingabout]

Are you planning pollution updates to match 0.7.12 changes (pollution divided by 60)?

I'll wait to see what the FFF says, then look into it.
in the mean time I'll make a note of it.

[darkfrei]

Why do you have thorium-ore but without any recipe for it?

[BlueTemplar]

You can add a use for thorium :

MadClown's Nuclear :
https://mods.factorio.com/download/Clow ... 000da54978
(older version : 1.0.0, newer won't work with Bob's alone, because they would require Angel's mods that replace Bob's ores !)

[bobingabout]

Why do you have thorium-ore but without any recipe for it?

It's something I keep planning to do, but never seem to get around to it.

MadClown's mod does reduce the urgency for me to do it.

[RubedoNoir]

Is it possible to change mod settings in a game that is already underway? Specifically, Can you disable alien artifact drops without starting a new map?

[Light]

Is it possible to change mod settings in a game that is already underway? Specifically, Can you disable alien artifact drops without starting a new map?

Yes. Just toggle on/off the stuff you want and when loading the map it will make the necessary changes.

[RocketManChronicles]

Is it possible to change mod settings in a game that is already underway? Specifically, Can you disable alien artifact drops without starting a new map?

Yes. Just toggle on/off the stuff you want and when loading the map it will make the necessary changes.

You do this from the Main Menu of the game. Go to Settings, then Mod Settings. Make your adjustments there, the game will force a restart; and now you have the game working the way you it to.

[Recon777]

So Pawz and I have been working on Supercheese's Swarm mod yesterday, and since then, I've made a few observations about the enemies as they exist in Bob's mods.

One thing I had always assumed was that behemoth was a higher tier than titan. Apparently, this is not the case, despite the titan being physically smaller. I am not sure what the stats are other than hitpoints, but the behemoth biter is 3000 vs the titan's 3500. Would be good to know how they compare in terms of speed, dps, and where they start showing up in the evolution factor.

Another thing I was surprised by is the fact that leviathan class biters exist. They are red and larger than the behemoths. They also apparently require a full 100% evolution before they show up, and they have 100,000 hit points, making them far and away more threatening than the titans.



Additionally, the base game includes "badass behemoths" which the biters have 5000 hit points, making them stronger than titans but not extremely so. It seems these also only appear at 100% evolution.

Regarding the 100% mark for evolution, I am not quite understanding what makes this happen. Pawz and I have played some rather long games and our 0.16 save where we left off was 90 hours of play and evolution was up to 97.3% It seems the higher it gets the slower it rises. I've just assumed it never actually reaches 100% so that it can always grow. If this is true, the leviathans and badass behemoths will never appear in-game.

Lastly, I am confused about how pollution is used to generate enemies. I thought in 0.17 the game was now strictly generating them FROM the pollution. But in my tests, I've got bugs popping out of nests left and right with no pollution on the map at all. Can someone clarify this for me?

What I propose is a bit of a balance for the enemies at the upper tier. Currently, small biters have 15hp with mediums being 5x stronger at 75hp. Big biters are also 5x stronger again at 375hp.

Then we see some doubling, with Huge biters having 750, Giant having 1500, and Behemoth having 3000.

Oddly, Titans only go up by 17% to 3500 followed by a 43% increase to badass behemoths and then a whopping 20x increase for the leviathans.

It is also notable that once 100% evo is reached, the leviathans are rather numerous as well as being able to run about the same speed as the other high tier biters. Seems to me that these are in a class by themselves and should probably be extra slow and maybe not attempt to cluster with the others. A single leviathan should be something to be feared. And at 100k hp it would be, even if it was slower and tended to work alone.



Regarding Titans, I think they can probably be buffed up as well. Let's let the badass behemoth stay at 5000hp or maybe 6000hp not terribly far up from its 3000hp brethren. Titans could be something more like 20k hp firmly establishing them as the top tier before the final phase when levis start showing up. Also, titans and behemoths should swap their physical size, making titans bigger.

[bobingabout]

One thing I had always assumed was that behemoth was a higher tier than titan. Apparently, this is not the case, despite the titan being physically smaller. I am not sure what the stats are other than hitpoints, but the behemoth biter is 3000 vs the titan's 3500. Would be good to know how they compare in terms of speed, dps, and where they start showing up in the evolution factor.

Additionally, the base game includes "badass behemoths" which the biters have 5000 hit points, making them stronger than titans but not extremely so. It seems these also only appear at 100% evolution.


What I propose is a bit of a balance for the enemies at the upper tier. Currently, small biters have 15hp with mediums being 5x stronger at 75hp. Big biters are also 5x stronger again at 375hp.

Then we see some doubling, with Huge biters having 750, Giant having 1500, and Behemoth having 3000.

Oddly, Titans only go up by 17% to 3500 followed by a 43% increase to badass behemoths and then a whopping 20x increase for the leviathans.


Regarding Titans, I think they can probably be buffed up as well. Let's let the badass behemoth stay at 5000hp or maybe 6000hp not terribly far up from its 3000hp brethren. Titans could be something more like 20k hp firmly establishing them as the top tier before the final phase when levis start showing up. Also, titans and behemoths should swap their physical size, making titans bigger.

Titan comes before behemoth. Behemoth is base game, Badass behemoth is my version of it. (Actually, badass might be the next tier, I forget)
The problem is that the base game changes things so often, it's hard to keep up, I'm fairly sure at the time I added Titan and Badass behemoth, the base game Behemoth used to have more health than it does now, 4000, maybe 5000, so my health values were based on that.

If I were to change anything, it would be to reduce the health of everything to bring them in line with the new lowered base game values, however, I like the fact that my versions are more of a threat. it's like, when you start seeing my "Elemental" nests show up, you know you're in trouble.

One thing I had always assumed was that behemoth was a higher tier than titan. Apparently, this is not the case, despite the titan being physically smaller. I am not sure what the Another thing I was surprised by is the fact that leviathan class biters exist. They are red and larger than the behemoths. They also apparently require a full 100% evolution before they show up, and they have 100,000 hit points, making them far and away more threatening than the titans.

Regarding the 100% mark for evolution, I am not quite understanding what makes this happen. Pawz and I have played some rather long games and our 0.16 save where we left off was 90 hours of play and evolution was up to 97.3% It seems the higher it gets the slower it rises. I've just assumed it never actually reaches 100% so that it can always grow. If this is true, the leviathans and badass behemoths will never appear in-game.

It is also notable that once 100% evo is reached, the leviathans are rather numerous as well as being able to run about the same speed as the other high tier biters. Seems to me that these are in a class by themselves and should probably be extra slow and maybe not attempt to cluster with the others. A single leviathan should be something to be feared. And at 100k hp it would be, even if it was slower and tended to work alone.

Actually, they show up when you hit 99%, they're suposed to be fairly rare, they're suposed to be the main threat when you get high enough, and the fact that they join with the swarm is part of the threat. Even my own walls tend to get broken when a Leviathan shows up with a large swarm of lower tier biters, and mine are 3 walls thick.

Lastly, I am confused about how pollution is used to generate enemies. I thought in 0.17 the game was now strictly generating them FROM the pollution. But in my tests, I've got bugs popping out of nests left and right with no pollution on the map at all. Can someone clarify this for me?

keep in mind the pollution system has just had an overhaul a couple of sub-versions ago, I'm fairly sure it's still in the tweaking phase, so it's known to have issues.

[BlueTemplar]

Lastly, I am confused about how pollution is used to generate enemies. I thought in 0.17 the game was now strictly generating them FROM the pollution. But in my tests, I've got bugs popping out of nests left and right with no pollution on the map at all. Can someone clarify this for me?

They are generated from the pollution for the attacks.
However defense biters don't need pollution to keep showing up in an endless stream (this includes placing buildings too close to the nests or vice versa),
and, AFAIK, expansion parties don't consume any pollution either.

it's like, when you start seeing my "Elemental" nests show up, you know you're in trouble.

But (at least in 0.16), they are already there when you start the game ?? (And can make getting rid of nests pretty hard, good job on that !)

[bobingabout]

it's like, when you start seeing my "Elemental" nests show up, you know you're in trouble.

But (at least in 0.16), they are already there when you start the game ?? (And can make getting rid of nests pretty hard, good job on that !)

Yes, I THINK I changed that for 0.17, I don't remember.

[Recon777]

Okay that helps. Since we're working on Swarm balance, I'm considering how all of this fits together.

We've changed Swarm to produce a hell of a lot more enemies upon death, making the highest Bob enemies truly terrifying. Though the ultimate balance numbers will really depend on how many hitpoints the base mod ends up going with.

Titan feels like it could use a big buff. Again, I'm thinking 10k-20k would be appropriate. You've got both the behemoth and the badass behemoth which are 3k and 5k respectively. Titan has 3500, which feels very out of place and would fit nicely between badass and leviathan by buffing to 10k or so.

Regarding evolution 99% that is odd... In my tests, I set my evo to 99% and I never saw the leviathans. But when I set it to 100% (is this attainable naturally?) they were fairly common.

With pollution... okay I'll wait till they are done figuring it out. Hopefully, we won't be seeing biters spawn in a pollution free planet. Though it may be worth making that an option in the settings.

Here's how I think it might be good to have it: Make each unit of pollution worth a certain number of enemy hitpoints. Then, based on the evo factor, the nests will "eat" pollution until they have saved up enough to spawn whatever creature is appropriate. This would make leviathans rare but "earned" since they are a direct result of a massive amount of pollution the player has created. Also, naturally spitters are half the hitpoints of biters, so their hitpoints would count double. Personally, I think the spitter/biter ratio is currently a bit too high.

[BlueTemplar]

Well, I'm willing to bet that leviathans already cost a lot more pollution points than the previous tiers ?

[bobingabout]

Regarding evolution 99% that is odd... In my tests, I set my evo to 99% and I never saw the leviathans. But when I set it to 100% (is this attainable naturally?) they were fairly common.

that's because the appearance chance is linear change, at 99% it's 0% chance, at 100% it's 100% chance (though total chance is it's chance weight divided by all chance weights added together, so if it has 100% chance to spawn with a weight of 0.1, and the total is 10, that's 1% of all enemies being Leviathan. I THINK it's actually closer to 4% of enemies are Leviathan at 100% evolution factor)

[Recon777]

They are generated from the pollution for the attacks.
However defense biters don't need pollution to keep showing up in an endless stream (this includes placing buildings too close to the nests or vice versa),
and, AFAIK, expansion parties don't consume any pollution either.

Curious what the difference is between an attack biter and a defense biter. Do defense biters not ever go on raiding parties?

Also, how does this integrate with the Rampant mod, if anyone knows? I use Rampant because it does seem to help make biter groups more than just blind attrition engines.

I THINK it's actually closer to 4% of enemies are Leviathan at 100% evolution factor

Hah. Good to know. Although 4% chance of producing a 100k hitpoint monster is still going to make half the hitpoints on the playing field belong to leviathans, since they are 20-25 times stronger than the other big ones.

[bobingabout]

They are generated from the pollution for the attacks.
However defense biters don't need pollution to keep showing up in an endless stream (this includes placing buildings too close to the nests or vice versa),
and, AFAIK, expansion parties don't consume any pollution either.

Curious what the difference is between an attack biter and a defense biter. Do defense biters not ever go on raiding parties?

I don't think there's the option to do this in the code, however, a tanky biter that does less damage, when the turrets target it, they won't stop until it's dead, and if it's very hard to kill, it allows all the other biters to wipe out your base.

[RocketManChronicles]

If I were to change anything, it would be to reduce the health of everything to bring them in line with the new lowered base game values, however, I like the fact that my versions are more of a threat. it's like, when you start seeing my "Elemental" nests show up, you know you're in trouble.

PLEASE for all that is sacred and holy in Factorio, please do not make your enemies easier. I love the challenge, especially when your pollution hits 99%. That huge jump to a Leviathan will show your weaknesses in your defenses. (I barely survived my 0.16 game when these things showed up, lost nearly 2/3 of my base before I was able to push the biters back).

Titan feels like it could use a big buff. Again, I'm thinking 10k-20k would be appropriate. You've got both the behemoth and the badass behemoth which are 3k and 5k respectively. Titan has 3500, which feels very out of place and would fit nicely between badass and leviathan by buffing to 10k or so.

As someone who loves having the near-death experience throughout the entire game, I support a hitpoint increase. From experience, (as mentioned in above 0.16 game) I was sitting comfortably for a long time with basic defenses until the Leviathan biters.

Regarding evolution 99% that is odd... In my tests, I set my evo to 99% and I never saw the leviathans. But when I set it to 100% (is this attainable naturally?) they were fairly common.

Reaching 100% evolution is attainable, but it gets slow near the end.

Usually at this point in the game, most bases will have pushed the nests far enough away to be outside any pollution clouds. And the base game scales nest spawner destruction down as you destroy more; so this is a very exponentially decreasing factor. The time factor is the only way a lot of players reach 100% evolution, however, maintaining a pollution cloud that is reaching biter nests will certainly get you there quickly. Or you can destroy something like 3000-4000 spawners.