Suggestion about a water pump.

[CDarklock]

Yes, this is very cool, but the in-game pump looks nothing like that.

What does it look like under that big metal housing, though? It could totally be a basic screw pump.

Also, (unlike for wind!), there is no water flowing mechanic anywhere*, even as visual candy.

Then how does the offshore pump work? I mean, it works. There must be some kind of mechanic driving it. And underwater currents are totally a thing.; there could be a massive network of flowing water through small caves, so thoroughly ubiquitous that you just have to get the pump's drive wheel about twelve feet under the surface to catch it. The surface wouldn't be disturbed, but the current could still be reliably strong.

[mrvn]

Yes, this is very cool, but the in-game pump looks nothing like that.

What does it look like under that big metal housing, though? It could totally be a basic screw pump.

Also, (unlike for wind!), there is no water flowing mechanic anywhere*, even as visual candy.

Then how does the offshore pump work? I mean, it works. There must be some kind of mechanic driving it. And underwater currents are totally a thing.; there could be a massive network of flowing water through small caves, so thoroughly ubiquitous that you just have to get the pump's drive wheel about twelve feet under the surface to catch it. The surface wouldn't be disturbed, but the current could still be reliably strong.

It's doing the tree thing using surface tension and creating a vacuum at the top by evaporating water at the top. At a slow and steady 1200l/s. Ok, maybe not. How do belts work? They have no power source and yet they move.

Not everything is explained.

[leadraven]

It's doing the tree thing using surface tension and creating a vacuum at the top by evaporating water at the top. At a slow and steady 1200l/s. Ok, maybe not. How do belts work? They have no power source and yet they move.

Not everything is explained.

Belts are the core game-forming mechanic, necessary game convention. Pumps don't require electricity just to simplify game start.

[mrvn]

It's doing the tree thing using surface tension and creating a vacuum at the top by evaporating water at the top. At a slow and steady 1200l/s. Ok, maybe not. How do belts work? They have no power source and yet they move.

Not everything is explained.

Belts are the core game-forming mechanic, necessary game convention. Pumps don't require electricity just to simplify game start.

I still favour the way some mods changed the pumps. The pump needs electricity but like burner inserter it has some energy when you place it so it pumps a little water before running out. Even a few units of water are enough to get into the boiler to produce some steam and then the steam engine kicks in and produces a few kW of power and everything takes off.

So really I don't see any of the "simplify game start" part as having any grounds. Any new user will place the pump, place the boiler, place the steam engine, throw in some wood or coal and it runs.

[meganothing]

I still favour the way some mods changed the pumps. The pump needs electricity but like burner inserter it has some energy when you place it so it pumps a little water before running out. Even a few units of water are enough to get into the boiler to produce some steam and then the steam engine kicks in and produces a few kW of power and everything takes off.

So really I don't see any of the "simplify game start" part as having any grounds. Any new user will place the pump, place the boiler, place the steam engine, throw in some wood or coal and it runs.

Is it reliable? I have noticed that sometimes burner inserters waste their inital coal and have to be reset to work. Probably because they waste the energy to move something else (in my case often ammo) instead of getting coal.

With the pump it could be that someone sets down the pump and a few pipes, then removes the water-filled pipes (or the heated-up boiler) again because he wants a different pipe pathing. At that time in the game I wouldn't trust new players to reason out the cause and not blame the game to be a buggy mess.

[mrvn]

I still favour the way some mods changed the pumps. The pump needs electricity but like burner inserter it has some energy when you place it so it pumps a little water before running out. Even a few units of water are enough to get into the boiler to produce some steam and then the steam engine kicks in and produces a few kW of power and everything takes off.

So really I don't see any of the "simplify game start" part as having any grounds. Any new user will place the pump, place the boiler, place the steam engine, throw in some wood or coal and it runs.

Is it reliable? I have noticed that sometimes burner inserters waste their inital coal and have to be reset to work. Probably because they waste the energy to move something else (in my case often ammo) instead of getting coal.

With the pump it could be that someone sets down the pump and a few pipes, then removes the water-filled pipes (or the heated-up boiler) again because he wants a different pipe pathing. At that time in the game I wouldn't trust new players to reason out the cause and not blame the game to be a buggy mess.

You can screw it up. But even if you remove the pipes if you do it in the right order the water will back flow back into the pump (right?). Or if you leave the last pipe piece to the pump that will retain water. But lets assume we screwed this up. Just like burner inserters flashing "no fuel" the pump will flash "no power" after exhausting the initial boost. Even if the player doesn't know the mechanics he should wonder: Why it's flashing now? It wasn't flashing before. Hmm, lets try removing and placing that again.

The intro includes building a steam engine. So compilatron could mention that the pump (and burner inserter) will only work for a short time before they need fuel/energy.

PS: Burner inserter when freshly placed will pick up the item on their default lane and only pick from the other lane when the primary lane can't be used. If they pick up something burnable they check their own fuel status and insert the item. They do NOT decide what to pick up depending on their fuel status. So if you have a half/half belt then burner inserter on one side will run out of fuel and the other side won't.

[meganothing]

You can screw it up. But even if you remove the pipes if you do it in the right order the water will back flow back into the pump (right?). Or if you leave the last pipe piece to the pump that will retain water. But lets assume we screwed this up. Just like burner inserters flashing "no fuel" the pump will flash "no power" after exhausting the initial boost. Even if the player doesn't know the mechanics he should wonder: Why it's flashing now? It wasn't flashing before. Hmm, lets try removing and placing that again.

The intro includes building a steam engine. So compilatron could mention that the pump (and burner inserter) will only work for a short time before they need fuel/energy.

I doubt most novice players will just remove and replace it, the quirk of of burner inserters to refuel himself from thin air in the inventory is against any real-world experience. Most likely they will search for a different means to provide electricity instead. The idea with the tutorial could work though.

PS: Burner inserter when freshly placed will pick up the item on their default lane and only pick from the other lane when the primary lane can't be used. If they pick up something burnable they check their own fuel status and insert the item. They do NOT decide what to pick up depending on their fuel status. So if you have a half/half belt then burner inserter on one side will run out of fuel and the other side won't.

That is not correct, I did a test just now to make sure: If there is coal on a fully filled half cola /half ammo belt a newly placed burner inserter will pick up coal first, independent of the side on which the coal is on the belt.

Maybe that was the way in much older alphas and it was changed eventually.

[mrvn]

PS: Burner inserter when freshly placed will pick up the item on their default lane and only pick from the other lane when the primary lane can't be used. If they pick up something burnable they check their own fuel status and insert the item. They do NOT decide what to pick up depending on their fuel status. So if you have a half/half belt then burner inserter on one side will run out of fuel and the other side won't.

That is not correct, I did a test just now to make sure: If there is coal on a fully filled half cola /half ammo belt a newly placed burner inserter will pick up coal first, independent of the side on which the coal is on the belt.

Maybe that was the way in much older alphas and it was changed eventually.

Maybe. Have to test it again. I noticed it with ores.

Have you tested it on a moving belt? A belt that itsn't compressed?

Last I checked a burner inserter wouldn't wait for coal when low on fuel but keep shoveling ore into a furnace and run out of energy when fuel is sparse on the belt.

[meganothing]

Maybe. Have to test it again. I noticed it with ores.

Have you tested it on a moving belt? A belt that itsn't compressed?

Last I checked a burner inserter wouldn't wait for coal when low on fuel but keep shoveling ore into a furnace and run out of energy when fuel is sparse on the belt.

Burner inserters obviously CAN run out of energy if given the opportunity. And the opportunity is if no coal is on the belt (or so sparse that by chance they always miss it because they are in the act of inserting some ore/ammo). And they then use their total energy for transfering ores/ammo. This is something I don't need to test, it is the logical explanation why they run out of energy. We are in agreement that that happens.

I only tested what happens when they also have coal available in any lane of the belt and then my test shows that they will first refuel themselves independent of the lane the coal is on.

[mrvn]

Maybe. Have to test it again. I noticed it with ores.

Have you tested it on a moving belt? A belt that itsn't compressed?

Last I checked a burner inserter wouldn't wait for coal when low on fuel but keep shoveling ore into a furnace and run out of energy when fuel is sparse on the belt.

Burner inserters obviously CAN run out of energy if given the opportunity. And the opportunity is if no coal is on the belt (or so sparse that by chance they always miss it because they are in the act of inserting some ore/ammo). And they then use their total energy for transfering ores/ammo. This is something I don't need to test, it is the logical explanation why they run out of energy. We are in agreement that that happens.

I only tested what happens when they also have coal available in any lane of the belt and then my test shows that they will first refuel themselves independent of the lane the coal is on.

My question was what happens when the ore is one pixel nearer the pick up line than the coal? In the past the burner inserter would pick up ore despite there being coal on the tile as well as ore because the ore was nearer the pickup point.

[meganothing]

My question was what happens when the ore is one pixel nearer the pick up line than the coal? In the past the burner inserter would pick up ore despite there being coal on the tile as well as ore because the ore was nearer the pickup point.

It isn't only nearer. If the ore is slightly in front (by the minimal step the software allows and that step isn't smeared over two tiles) and the materials advance one step every x ticks then for at least one tick the ammo/iron/copper is the ONLY ore in range and sight of the inserter.

If an unused inserter is checking the belt every tick then it has no choice (without some look-ahead into the previous tile or a wait state programmed in) but to take the ammo/iron/copper instead of the later coal that isn't in its view.
This is the result I would normally expect without knowing more details about the implementation. Now a good scientist would still test it to make sure, I'm a rather lazy scientist

[mrvn]

My question was what happens when the ore is one pixel nearer the pick up line than the coal? In the past the burner inserter would pick up ore despite there being coal on the tile as well as ore because the ore was nearer the pickup point.

It isn't only nearer. If the ore is slightly in front (by the minimal step the software allows and that step isn't smeared over two tiles) and the materials advance one step every x ticks then for at least one tick the ammo/iron/copper is the ONLY ore in range and sight of the inserter.

If an unused inserter is checking the belt every tick then it has no choice (without some look-ahead into the previous tile or a wait state programmed in) but to take the ammo/iron/copper instead of the later coal that isn't in its view.
This is the result I would normally expect without knowing more details about the implementation. Now a good scientist would still test it to make sure, I'm a rather lazy scientist

A good programmer would make sure the inserter only looks for burnables when it doesn't have enough energy left to complete a full item transfer and still have enough energy left to pick up fuel (and then some). Someone that travels to other stars should have smart enough firmware for that. On the other hand maybe that's why he crashed.

[Darinth]

My question was what happens when the ore is one pixel nearer the pick up line than the coal? In the past the burner inserter would pick up ore despite there being coal on the tile as well as ore because the ore was nearer the pickup point.

It isn't only nearer. If the ore is slightly in front (by the minimal step the software allows and that step isn't smeared over two tiles) and the materials advance one step every x ticks then for at least one tick the ammo/iron/copper is the ONLY ore in range and sight of the inserter.

If an unused inserter is checking the belt every tick then it has no choice (without some look-ahead into the previous tile or a wait state programmed in) but to take the ammo/iron/copper instead of the later coal that isn't in its view.
This is the result I would normally expect without knowing more details about the implementation. Now a good scientist would still test it to make sure, I'm a rather lazy scientist

A good programmer would make sure the inserter only looks for burnables when it doesn't have enough energy left to complete a full item transfer and still have enough energy left to pick up fuel (and then some). Someone that travels to other stars should have smart enough firmware for that. On the other hand maybe that's why he crashed.

I could make a good argument that that the inserter should be looking for fuel as soon as it can hold the full value of said fuel piece, but refuse to do anything but wait for fuel once it's value gets low enough. This avoids production delays due to having to wait for fuel, because it's more likely to be able to find it during the course of it's routine duties and thus never have to stop and wait... but your second point is more valid and is probably going to be my go-to for why you're stuck on this god forsaken biter-infested planet.

[EstebanLB]

My question was what happens when the ore is one pixel nearer the pick up line than the coal? In the past the burner inserter would pick up ore despite there being coal on the tile as well as ore because the ore was nearer the pickup point.

It isn't only nearer. If the ore is slightly in front (by the minimal step the software allows and that step isn't smeared over two tiles) and the materials advance one step every x ticks then for at least one tick the ammo/iron/copper is the ONLY ore in range and sight of the inserter.

If an unused inserter is checking the belt every tick then it has no choice (without some look-ahead into the previous tile or a wait state programmed in) but to take the ammo/iron/copper instead of the later coal that isn't in its view.
This is the result I would normally expect without knowing more details about the implementation. Now a good scientist would still test it to make sure, I'm a rather lazy scientist

A good programmer would make sure the inserter only looks for burnables when it doesn't have enough energy left to complete a full item transfer and still have enough energy left to pick up fuel (and then some). Someone that travels to other stars should have smart enough firmware for that. On the other hand maybe that's why he crashed.

I could make a good argument that that the inserter should be looking for fuel as soon as it can hold the full value of said fuel piece, but refuse to do anything but wait for fuel once it's value gets low enough. This avoids production delays due to having to wait for fuel, because it's more likely to be able to find it during the course of it's routine duties and thus never have to stop and wait... but your second point is more valid and is probably going to be my go-to for why you're stuck on this god forsaken biter-infested planet.

All of you are going a bit off topic here and you are forgetting about inserters picking up from chests.
So far, IMHO, the best suggestion I saw was making the pump require electricity and add an internal water capacity storage, PLUS, initial free pumping time to fill that exact ammount, ignoring pipes and tanks placed beforehand. Having a similar (albeit slower and less efficient) burner pump with the same buffer mehcanic is a goo idea too, the same way we have burner drills and inserters, to have some level of automation before electricity