Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointless

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Rahjital
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by Rahjital »

Indeed. Right now, biters feel more like animals that are made angry by pollution rather than a force of evil bent on killing all living things, and it would be great it if remained that way.

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-root
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by -root »

Ohlmann wrote:Actually, I would be much happier with them being like ant. In other word, not having a strange and artificial overlord, but having each being individually a bit smart, and the intelligence emerging from that.
I like this idea more than the overlord one... Gives much more potential for one lone biter really screwing everything up. For example, all the dumb biters run off to throw themselves against a wall while the smarter one goes and attacks the power pole behind the outpost :mrgreen: .

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by Vasillo »

its not really effective against massive bases as I have had to encounter to make room, poison capsules are the way to go ;)

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by DerivePi »

OK, as I see it, the push is to make turrets a defensive weapon only and require the use of hand weapons for removal of hives. I think, given better alternatives, that we are in fair agreement with this. Some ideas for restricting turrets to a defensive only role are as follows:

1. Provide a zone around biter structures that restricts player construction - (I suppose, but I think there are more elegant options available)
2. Make laser turret energy consumption prohibitive - (This also affects their defensive nature in a very negative way. And, in my mind, would take away from the core joy of the game, building a factory)
3. Have biters prioritize utility poles for attack or make biters smarter - (I think for the late game, having the biters challenge the player in different ways would be a good thing but definitely not in the early game. Balancing the biters should be another post for discussion).
4. Require a setup time before turrets can operate - (I think this is viable. The turrets could behave similar to a Roboport when it initializes - could be devastating if power goes down at the wrong moment and the turrets are inoperable during an attack - The Phoenixian)
5. Anti turret worm that out-ranges turrets but is ineffective against the player - (I think this is viable too. This effectively restricts player construction in a visual way
6. Anti-structure cloud (same as above but I like the anti-turret worm better)
7. Change power supply behavior (no, this would ruin the game)
8. Change the laser turret behavior (as long as it doesn't change the turrets' defensive role. Although, I think some additional discussion is worthwhile if we look at balancing defenses differently against different biters. Ex. big biters are resistant to laser turrets but weak against landmines - or something like that)

As noted in the "balancing of existing weapons" post ( https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =16&t=4673 ), there is an early game opportunity to remove small nests.

Previous discussion of this topic = https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... s&start=30
Last edited by DerivePi on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Phoenixian
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by The Phoenixian »

Have to say, out of all these options I like the anti turret worm best: It feels like something that would work via naturally making turrets a less optimal choice without being being gamey or heavy handed. As far as I can tell, all you'd need is decent damage, long range, and a projectile that either does not track it's target or is very limited in it's ability to do so.

Turret Initilization could work but it would have a side effect to consider: Losing power for at the wrong time could be absolutely devastating if the laser turrets need to reinitialize in the middle of an attack. Though I don't know whether that would be bad or good for gameplay.
The greatest gulf that we must leap is the gulf between each other's assumptions and conceptions. To argue fairly, we must reach consensus on the meanings and values of basic principles. -Thereisnosaurus

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by cpy »

Zerg creep is good way to counter Protoss cannon rush. :D
Just put some spine crawlers and some spore to counter air units and you're good to go.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by darkminaz »

i think time till the turrets work would be the best thing. especially against the BIG camps your guns do shit, combat shotgun, 10 destoryer, grenades .. and it still takes more then a few minutes to kill the big blue monsters.

or not letting it build withing a radius of xy.

i like going in destroy a few and run back to my base. but yeah building a giant station and popping down 50 lasers play x repeat is probably the fastest way to wype out the zerg army^^
don't nerf my laser turrets to strong, or let the bots refill the normal turrets

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by The Colonist »

Nerfing laser turrets wont be necessary, they need power input from your base and need a lot of power from it.

If anything make an enemy that laser turrets are ineffective against but weaker against weapons. Problem solved

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by Turtle »

IMO, the problem is balance. The only reason I use turrets to kill off a biter nest is big/medium worms. I believe they appear too early in the game, when the player can't handle them.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by roothorick »

Turtle wrote:IMO, the problem is balance. The only reason I use turrets to kill off a biter nest is big/medium worms. I believe they appear too early in the game, when the player can't handle them.
Shit, even in the endgame I can't really handle them without turret creeping.

I think that's the biggest problem; attacking larger nests on foot is obscenely difficult (if possible at all), to the point where most players can't handle it. So they go with the strategy that works -- turret creep -- which makes it way too easy. Turret creep would be less popular if other approaches were actually viable.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by Calico »

roothorick wrote:
Turtle wrote:IMO, the problem is balance. The only reason I use turrets to kill off a biter nest is big/medium worms. I believe they appear too early in the game, when the player can't handle them.
Shit, even in the endgame I can't really handle them without turret creeping.

I think that's the biggest problem; attacking larger nests on foot is obscenely difficult (if possible at all), to the point where most players can't handle it. So they go with the strategy that works -- turret creep -- which makes it way too easy. Turret creep would be less popular if other approaches were actually viable.
Attacking any size nest with enough bots, some power armor, combat shotgun is insanly easy. I never tower creeped ONCE in like 10 playtroughs of freeplay over the last 6months, totaling like 300 hours gametime. Combat is boring and i'm almost looking more forward to 0.12 combat revamp then multiplayer. Almost. Tower creep is unnecessary. And hopefully getting done with in 0.12 when tainted land comes into play.

For tips how to deal with large nests, just use "search", you'll find plenty of advice (from early game combat to late game power armour builds). It really is easy.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by liamjdavison »

Zequez wrote:
I think that the combat is a chore, personally, and so I am very grateful for anything which lets me automate it away. Drone or artillery strikes would be great, but until then, I am going to embrace turret creep and any other way I can focus on my own brainpower, not keyboard dexterity.
I completely agree, I'm rubbish at the dexterity required for character combat so I always use turret creep. I wish there was another way of collecting alien artefacts for those of use who prefer construction to combat.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by bobingabout »

Yeah... I think the only time I did turret creeping was during the missions. When I play a sandbox type game, I never need to turret creep. I set up walls, with turrets behind them as my perimeter, and let the creepers come to me to die at the hands of my defence, but when I want to go out killing them for the artifacts, power suit, shotgun (or rocket launcher, depending on the stage of the game) and bots/capsules. if you use the tools the game gives you correctly, you can take out the bases even with relatively low level equipment.

An early tactic is to build cars, and use them as a mobile defencive suit. drive out while throwing your poison capsules, and/or shooting the base, make a quick pass once or twice, then return to fix your car... to get a new one (they don't last too long).

Best attack against the worms (in early games that is) is poison capsules, throw a few of those in a biter base, and run away, while shooting the biters chasing you, and you're golden, come back to a decimated nest and loot! When you get to the stage where you can build the higher level bots, just throw out a few of those, and the biter nest just melts in front of you.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by espritcrafter »

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned... but has anyone thought about adding highly laser resistant biters or another type of enemy? Heck, it doesn't even have to be aggressive.

Idea 1: Add mutated biter that is highly resistant to lasers.
- You need gun turrets to shoot these guys when they come up closer.

Idea 2: Wandering neutral critter that absorbs pollution and heat (lasers). After reaching a certain size, they become aggressive. *attracted to shiny land mines (researchable?)*
- Add an occasional gun turret or mine here and there to keep these pests away.

Idea 3: A slow moving rock type critter that requires explosives or AP ammo to kill - resistant to lasers. With this, one may accidentally wander into into you laser turret lines, bathe in a laser shower for warmth, causing you to drain your electrical network. *attracted to shiny land mines (researchable?)*
- Add an occasional gun turret or mine here and there to keep these pests away.

Idea 4: Occasional solar flare that causes all electricity to discharge, and disables generators for a couple of seconds. May occur at any time of the day. -_-;;
- Have backup gun turrets and mines, and pray that you don't get one during an attack at night. (maybe add research to reduce electricity loss to only 50%) Maybe make extend the downtime to 30 seconds, but also stun/daze biters for an equal amount of time to make it more interesting.


It would also add some flavor to have random neutral critters that are attracted to all of the noise, lights, and pollution. They don't attack or destroy anything, but occasionally get in your way and may infest an area and require extermination to clear out. They would be very easy to kill, but like rats and other pests, become a problem once they setup house.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by ludsoe »

espritcrafter wrote:I'm not sure if this has been mentioned... but has anyone thought about adding highly laser resistant biters or another type of enemy? Heck, it doesn't even have to be aggressive.

Idea 1: Add mutated biter that is highly resistant to lasers.
- You need gun turrets to shoot these guys when they come up closer.

Idea 2: Wandering neutral critter that absorbs pollution and heat (lasers). After reaching a certain size, they become aggressive. *attracted to shiny land mines (researchable?)*
- Add an occasional gun turret or mine here and there to keep these pests away.

Idea 3: A slow moving rock type critter that requires explosives or AP ammo to kill - resistant to lasers. With this, one may accidentally wander into into you laser turret lines, bathe in a laser shower for warmth, causing you to drain your electrical network. *attracted to shiny land mines (researchable?)*
- Add an occasional gun turret or mine here and there to keep these pests away.

Idea 4: Occasional solar flare that causes all electricity to discharge, and disables generators for a couple of seconds. May occur at any time of the day. -_-;;
- Have backup gun turrets and mines, and pray that you don't get one during an attack at night. (maybe add research to reduce electricity loss to only 50%) Maybe make extend the downtime to 30 seconds, but also stun/daze biters for an equal amount of time to make it more interesting.


It would also add some flavor to have random neutral critters that are attracted to all of the noise, lights, and pollution. They don't attack or destroy anything, but occasionally get in your way and may infest an area and require extermination to clear out. They would be very easy to kill, but like rats and other pests, become a problem once they setup house.
I dislike idea 4 entirely, I don't want random events to completely break my factory. The other enemy types are okay though.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by xnmo »

I think one of the bigger issues that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet is that biters spawn WAY WAY too quickly. Like seriously, does it make any sense that a hive can pump out a big biter every second? It's not like we need complete realism (because its impossible to make an intelligent grabber arm with nothing but a metal plate, a single gear and some coal :) ) but when it comes to the bigger nests it means that every couple of seconds there is an entirely new horde for you to mow through. So what you have to do is either a slow paced siege with dozens of turrets, or run in quickly and snipe the nests, ignoring the biters for as long as possible, since killing them is pointless if there will be just as many new ones after you go through that first bunch.

Another thing slowing down their spawn rates would do would let you rebalance them so individually they are each more of a threat.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by Calico »

xnmo wrote:I think one of the bigger issues that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet is that biters spawn WAY WAY too quickly. Like seriously, does it make any sense that a hive can pump out a big biter every second? It's not like we need complete realism (because its impossible to make an intelligent grabber arm with nothing but a metal plate, a single gear and some coal :) ) but when it comes to the bigger nests it means that every couple of seconds there is an entirely new horde for you to mow through. So what you have to do is either a slow paced siege with dozens of turrets, or run in quickly and snipe the nests, ignoring the biters for as long as possible, since killing them is pointless if there will be just as many new ones after you go through that first bunch.

Another thing slowing down their spawn rates would do would let you rebalance them so individually they are each more of a threat.
Yep, this problem (high spawn rate) is known and will likely be done with in the combat revamp (version 0.12). Right now fighting the biters is a waste of time. You can kill hundreds.... as long as you don't kill the spawner you have gained nothing.

Not very rewarding, but combat until revamp is basically: Bring loads of DPS, make the "fight" as short as possible, ignore/outrun/decoy/slowdown biters, hit spawners, kill remaining biters, rinse and repeat.

But with multiplayer around the corner, the devs have better things todo then focus on combat mechanics. They certainly need a overhaul, but they can't do it while working on mulitplayer. So, we will have to be patient.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by cpy »

I wish i had my gunzerker dual sniper rifle + rocket laucher and get borderlands on their asses.

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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by bobingabout »

cpy wrote:I wish i had my gunzerker dual sniper rifle + rocket laucher and get borderlands on their asses.
I like this idea.
Unfortunately I don't know how doable it is. I guess this is why you can install turrets in your power suit.
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Re: Attacking biters with turrets makes all weapons pointles

Post by fluffy_5432 »

espritcrafter wrote: Idea 1: Add mutated biter that is highly resistant to lasers.
- You need gun turrets to shoot these guys when they come up closer.
This is an excellent idea. Adding different resistances to enemies would strongly encourage the player to build multiple kinds of weapon systems and turrets.

But basically laser turrets are overpowered anyway. I think that walls of laser turrets should be more expensive and require far more power. It would be nice to see them nerfed and encourage players to use them only for their range.

Another idea would be for power poles to generate pollution proportional to the energy travelling through them. So when laser turrets fire the entire path back to the main base would light up. Unless you protect each individual pole (and can afford the electricity to do so) you will see your link interrupted.

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