Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.
Post Reply
User avatar
leadraven
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:23 pm
Contact:

Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post by leadraven » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am

TL;DR
Sequence of nuclear fuel reprocessing technologies (recipes), that replaces Kovarex enrichment.
Background
First of all, nuclear energy is awesome. But for me, it is too simple. I'd like nuclear industry to be more complicated then just Kovarex enrichment (one simple recipe that solves all problems), and have some inner technological progression.
Currently Nuclear fuel reprocessing is very boring and almost useless. So I've tried to replace Kovarex enrichment with more complex multistage Nuclear fuel reprocessing, which could be split into multiple sequential researches, each one increasing power production.
Also this reprocessing must be able to cope with either surplus and shortage of U238.
Thus I wanted to make the set of recipes with the following properties:
  1. They can be combined into enclosed cycles (U235 + U238 -> power) in several ways.
  2. These cycles must have different U235:U238 ratios both greater and less then natural proportion ( 1:142 ).
  3. Minimum additional intermediates so as not to over-complicate the system.
Concept
I came to the following :
1 extra intermediate - Plutonium (can be replaced with more abstract radioactive byproduct).
4 recipes for nuclear fuel production :
Shortcuts
  • Tier 0 - basic fuel production :
    U235 + U238 -> FC
  • Tier 1 - reuse residual uranium from DC, also get some "garbage" Pu :
    DC + U238 -> FC + Pu
  • Tier 2 - MOX-fuel, partially replace U235 with Pu in basic fuel production :
    U235 + Pu + U238 -> FC
  • Tier 3 - fuel exhaustion, pump up DC with Pu to get the most out of it :
    DC + Pu + U238 -> FC
Details
Combinations of these recipes allow to handle surplus of any component.
Tier 0 is already implemented and it is nice : 1 U235 + 19 U238 -> 10 FC.
By manipulating the proportions in other recipes, very different results can be obtained.
Some examples :
  • Nice rates:
    1x : 1 U235 + 10 Pu + 35 U238 -> 20 FC
    10x : 5 DC + 5 U238 -> 3 FC + 4 Pu
    10x : 4 DC + 3 Pu + 7 U238 -> 4FC
    Cycle : 1 U235 + 155 U238 -> 90 FC
  • Not so nice rates:
    6x : 1 U235 + 15 Pu + 45 U238 -> 25FC
    75x : 5 DC + 5 U238 -> 3 FC + 5 Pu
    95x : 2 DC + 3 Pu + 3 U238 -> 2FC
    Cycle : 1 U235 + 155 U238 -> 94.16 FC
Optional :
  • It is possible to get rid of this doubtful proportion 1:1 in tier4, but numbers will be not so nice.
  • Centrifuge ratios can also be tuned with recipe times.
  • Any additional chemical ingredients are very welcome.
  • Nuke could require Pu.
  • Out-of-use byproduct "Nuclear waste" and special facility "Nuclear burial ground" that destroys waste ( time + Nuclear waste -> nothing ), producing huge pollution.
I've already got the hang of balancing these recipes, so if anyone wants to see some specific numbers, you are free to apply.

Hope you like this suggestion. I believe it's more challenging and rewarding then Kovarex enrichment.

Hexicube
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post by Hexicube » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 pm

It should be possible to implement this as a mod, as the recipes themselves are pretty simple and the only real addition is plutonium as a pure intermediate item. Based on a search for "enrichment", this actually seems to be a convenient hole in the market if you want to capitalise on it.

I don't think the tier 3 recipe is really needed. Given that DCs and U-238 will be plentiful, the recipe doesn't do anything that other recipes can do; it's a pure convenience recipe.

The burial building would not work the way you want it to without mechanical changes to prevent destroying waste via other means. It would effectively be ignored, and the typical pollution cloud is massive to begin with.

I understand the gripe with enrichment potentially making late-game too easy, since you can churn out nukes if you have the blue circuit production for it, but that's arguably the point.

User avatar
leadraven
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post by leadraven » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:52 pm

Hexicube wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 pm
I don't think the tier 3 recipe is really needed. Given that DCs and U-238 will be plentiful, the recipe doesn't do anything that other recipes can do; it's a pure convenience recipe.
Tier 3 is needed to raise U238:U235 ratio above natural 142:1, so production will not stuck with U238 overflow. It is one of the major problems of such cycle.
Hexicube wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 pm
The burial building would not work the way you want it to without mechanical changes to prevent destroying waste via other means. It would effectively be ignored, and the typical pollution cloud is massive to begin with.
Yes, player can just shot at things to destroy them. But who will do it regularly? Automation, even with some cost, is a much more attractive way.
But currently pollution does not matter much and does not have many related game mechanics. This burial thing is just for fun.
Hexicube wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:31 pm
I understand the gripe with enrichment potentially making late-game too easy, since you can churn out nukes if you have the blue circuit production for it, but that's arguably the point.
But to accumulate Plutonium from reactors to produce nukes will be much more fun ;)
And also it will be very interesting dependency between nukes production rate and factory scale.

Thanks for feedback.

nafira
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post by nafira » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:37 pm

I think Kovarex is fine in its behavior (why not, you're technologically advanced ^^).
The problem is the time first. It should take more than that because you can produce 80Gj with 1 iteration of the process which corresponds to 22MW (using 60 seconds not 50sec to ease the calculation) of energy for each iteration made which costs ...wait for it 350kW (which can be lowered).

So multiply running costs by 10 : 3.5MW per iteration
That's a way of handling it.

The other is playing on Kovarex processing time AND running costs :
* Process time : 10 min (so you have to put modules)
* Cost in energy : +100%

Now using real number in Joules :
Method 1 : 80Gj are produced every minute with 2.9MJ (not counting Uranium cells costs which is negligible)
Method 2 : 80Gj are produced every 10 minutes with 580KJ => you will need more centrifuge and modules, the cost will increase


No need to do very complicated things. Maybe adding a few things to the recipe : steel, solid fuel not eletricity. But that's all is needed I think.

Engineer1701D
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm
Contact:

Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Engineer1701D » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:16 am

While exploring various Plutonium/nuclear fuel cycle mods it occurs to me that some vanilla recipes are sort of "wrong."



I propose:

1. Nuclear Fuel be manufactured by Assembling Machines not by Centrifuges. Nuclear Fuel creation is an assembly process not a material separation process.

2. Nuclear Fuel be classified as an Intermediate and benefit from Productivity Modules as with all other fuels.

(This one is mostly for personal interests. I understand this concept has been condensed into a single process
(Kovarex). In any case, I think is should not be a Centrifuge that forms the process.)
3a. I love the Kovarex Enrichment Process; who would imagine their name becoming perfect for a recipe in a game? I like it's challenging setup. I like the fact that it naturally gates full nuclear viability.
3b. I prefer the more realistic fuel cycle processes where some fissile material is produced in nuclear reactors and can be reclaimed in post processing. Nuclear power plants and weapons primarily require a fissile material. This can be U235, U233, P239, P241, etc. The idea is that U235 is more costly to refine and the only naturally occurring material found in usable (but minute) quantities. We generate additional pure fissile materials in nuclear reactors.

3.The Kovarex Enrichment Process be removed, repurposed, or revisited:
-Merge Reprocessing with Kovarex?
-Repurpose Kovarex as advanced reprocessing that extracts/separates Plutonium/all fissile products?
-Perhaps the Kovarex process is akin to a breeder reactor? If that's the case we need an additional manufacturing machine (industrial reactor?) for the Kovarex Process instead of using the Centrifuge.

3c. It is through this (re)processing of nuclear fuel that steady fissile materials can be had for sustaining power plants, nuclear weapons, and the magical Nuclear Fuel item.
Last edited by Engineer1701D on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
leadraven
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by leadraven » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:34 am

I'll just leave it here :
viewtopic.php?t=64651

Engineer1701D
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Engineer1701D » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:52 am

@leadraven
Yeah not much new with proposal 3. But what about 1 and 2? Surely others have wondered the same?

User avatar
leadraven
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by leadraven » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:07 am

1 is a minor but reasonable change. For me it is oddly to load iron into centrifuge.

2 will break any cyclic processing, so I don't support it. In another topic (viewtopic.php?t=64606) I suggested to distinguish a new category of items - materials, and forbid usage of productivity modules in materials production. Nuclear fuel cell is a material.

Engineer1701D
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Engineer1701D » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:24 am

@leadraven
To be clear:

In #1 when I mention Nuclear Fuel I am specifically talking about the burner fuel item Nuclear Fuel not the reactor fuel item Uranium Fuel Cell. So no iron. Also the Uranium Fuel Cell is not made in the Centrifuge as it shouldn't be. (I'm sure you know all of this just making things clear)

I am tossed up myself about using Productivity Modules for Fuel Cell production. On one hand, making something without something seems terrible. On the other, if we don't like it for Fuel Cells or Satellites why can we accept it for Iron Plates? Like we're either all in or not right? Also, I do not know what you mean by a cyclic process.

I agree with your Material category. That makes a lot of sense. Some things are not placeable and are only used in other recipes, but they aren't exactly the type of things you want duplicated for free. The Fuel and the Satellite has to be the best examples of that. Fuel should be a lossy process at best not a gainful (like 10x solid fuel = 1x rocket fuel --> 120MJ down to 100MJ ).

User avatar
leadraven
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by leadraven » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:41 am

Oh, sorry about confusion with Fuel, I messed up a little.
Actually I'm not sure about Nuclear Fuel. I don't think it's an assembling, more like materials mixing... May be chemical plant?

By cyclic process I meant U238 -> Power Cell -> U238. Power Cell is just a mix of U235 and U238 in the right proportions. How productivity module can optimize that?

EDIT. Nuclear fuel should be crafted by the same machine as Rocket fuel. Currently it is assembler.

Engineer1701D
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Engineer1701D » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:17 pm

Yeah productivity modules with Kovarex would be tough to manage to say the least.

"How productivity module can optimize that?"
How can they create anything from nothing? They just do. We either accept it as a processing refinement or magic :P

My first two proposals are the real reason I bothered with a post. It makes sense to me that Nuclear Fuel items are made in Assembling Machines not Centrifuges. Centrifuges separate existing materials not fabricating new materials/items. And point 2 suggests they should follow the same rules as every other fuel item in the game by being Productivity Module friendly.

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1094
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by BlueTemplar » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:37 pm

But Centrifuges look cool (especially at night).

And, considering the investment, they should !

Would you also have suggested to remove the green glow from Uranium to make it look more realistic ?
Image
Image

Though I guess that Cherenkov radiation would look pretty cool too !
Image

And Kovarex could still be bright green, a bit like Yellowcake is bright yellow :
Image

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4781
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Koub » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:39 pm

@OP : I'm very much in favor of merging your suggestion to leadraven's viewtopic.php?t=64651. Both try to adress the same core issue with comparable (although not identical) ways. I'd find interesting both were accessible within the same thread for discussion.

If it's OK for you, I'll do the merging.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1999
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Ranakastrasz » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:45 pm

Engineer1701D wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:17 pm
"How productivity module can optimize that?"
How can they create anything from nothing? They just do. We either accept it as a processing refinement or magic :P
I always thought of it as making higher quality materials. Honeycombing, Miniaturization, and so on. Circuits are smaller and so cheaper. Finer wires, stronger plastic/steel/iron so you don't need as much of it. Honeycomb structure, allowing voids and saving material without compromising durability.

But I mainly just hate productivity since it feels like cheating. Even if it isn't. Mainly because its a magic box type mechanic, not a more efficient process. You just install the module and suddenly you get more resources. Some mods have different methods of producing products, and higher techs are more complex and have higher yields.
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

Engineer1701D
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by Engineer1701D » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:44 pm

@Koub
By all means. Whatever gets this thing looked at works for me.

@BlueTemplar
Cherenkov radiation has always looked cool to me, but I'm not so visually motivated that I require the colors to be realistic. I mean most of these materials look like lead and are not orange, yellow, green, blue, etc. I like functionality. I think Kovarex might be a great balance between hyper realism and simple enough for the masses. I just argue that things aren't being built in the right manufacturer: Kovarex in some new Breeder Reactor or even as a different recipe in the existing reactors, and Nuclear fuel in the Assembling Machine or even the Chemical Plant with some extra chemicals like Sulfuric Acid required.
Last edited by Engineer1701D on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4781
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post by Koub » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:47 pm

[Koub] Merged into similar older topic about adding some depth to nuclear power.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
leadraven
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Energy Refinement

Post by leadraven » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:01 pm

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:45 pm
Engineer1701D wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:17 pm
"How productivity module can optimize that?"
How can they create anything from nothing? They just do. We either accept it as a processing refinement or magic :P
I always thought of it as making higher quality materials. Honeycombing, Miniaturization, and so on. Circuits are smaller and so cheaper. Finer wires, stronger plastic/steel/iron so you don't need as much of it. Honeycomb structure, allowing voids and saving material without compromising durability.

But I mainly just hate productivity since it feels like cheating. Even if it isn't. Mainly because its a magic box type mechanic, not a more efficient process. You just install the module and suddenly you get more resources. Some mods have different methods of producing products, and higher techs are more complex and have higher yields.
Yeah, I also perceive productivity modules as a moderate cheating, but I accept it. It is possible to make a circuit using less wires, or reuse wasted parts. But it is not possible to make more acid from a piece of sulfur. That's why I've suggested to separate materials from intermediates.

And, I think, I will try to learn some modding to implement suggested uranium processing.

Engineer1701D
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Advanced Nuclear fuel reprocessing

Post by Engineer1701D » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:23 pm

@leadraven
Currently, the Nuclear Fuel Cycle mod does most of the things I've mentioned in my 3rd proposal. Unfortunately, it keeps the Kovarex Enrichment Process. This sort of blurs things imho. It also keeps Nuclear Fuel crafting in the Centrifuge.

Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: arZic