Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

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BHakluyt
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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by BHakluyt » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:20 am

Yeah definitely try to release before Thursday because Thursday Space Engineers drops a massive update. Your usual Tuesdays would be good I reckon.

Also what that other guy said about belt speeds and biters definitely +1. The red and blue belts should slow them a bit more and be more comparative to how belts affect player running speed...

Anyways keep up the good work guys you are awesome!

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by nosports » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:55 am

i thought of using the belts as a biter brake :D

as i understand the changes, and looking from the pic in the fff ther is a considerably slowing down i may think the slow down now is to less.

I would aim for a blue belt to a half of quarter speed of the biter so it will be still useable as a brake, but not totally.......

you could also apply some (small) damage to every belt when walking over the belts, so in time with many biters the belt will be destroyed so in the end its a very wobbly defence :P

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by Titler » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:03 am

Is there going to be ore mixing in generation in the future? such as they "overlap" with a noise filter of which ore gets the tile. Otherwise tiles that are mixed/dirty and produce multiple ore types like when a miner covers different patches. I feel that the current system of them only touching on the edges and essentially destroying the initial patch when it gets generated remove complexity and feels odd in how the generation looks and feels.

A mixed/dirty ore tile requiring extra steps is likely too complex for the design image which is why i'd propose multiple ore type outputs. This then questions the need of mixed/combination textures which would be a lot of work for the combinations. I believe a checkerboard or noise filter approach on the placement in overlapping ore zones would be the simplest approach.

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by Mathematician » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:47 am

Cyclonut wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:36 pm
Then, I could put an alarm/horn and make sounds at 90, 95, 98, 99% so I would not miss the launch.
Try this:

Not exactly what you mean but very close. I constructed it on my 2nd base where rocket production was slow enough so I have been launching them manually. Horn goes off when there is 10 of every rocket part in requester chest. It basically says: "Silo stopped getting parts. The rocket is probably waiting for launch." Of course it will give false alarms with high RPM factories. Timer included so it will shut down after few signals and not annoy you any more.
I agree, though, that silo percentage output signal would be nice.
"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate."
--Sun Tzu

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by irbork » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:14 am

I will be waiting for some more iteration on 0.17. I want my first playthrough of this release have 100% new gui, including all hot-bar functionality, as well as fully implemented new water physics :P

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by ftbreizhbugs » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:21 am

Concerning the Rocket Silo redesign, i am a little bit disappointed that the outer tiles doesn't look like anything that could look like a delivery warehouse considering the huge amount of materials that needs to be delivered to this building...
Other building are to small to show that kind of details, but the rocket silo is not...
But its just a detail and won't prevent me from enjoying the update ;)
Thank you for your work!

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by psychomuffin » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:35 am

My 2 cents...
I love the attention to pollution, biters, pipes and all that, and impressed you even automated the wiki!
But as far as the chests... I like the old wood/iron/and steel chests more. Something about the shape. The new logistic chests are neat though! I like the iris hatch!
The new rocket looks awesome with all the pipes and other "factorioness" But something about makes it look a little flat... Maybe more shadows are needed, like the shadows of the crane as it moves up? Maybe some steam? And it can swill around a bit to enhance the 3Dness. Maybe some cables, and the slack would change as it moves up. Maybe some spot lights to highlight it as it moves up... I don't know... it's so good.... but just something is missing... just looks too flat... like a pop-up book where you slide something up out of a slot.
But I'm nit-picking... as I always say... this game was already super awesome years ago... this is all icing on the cake, thanks so much for all you do!

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:44 am

Titler wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:03 am
Is there going to be ore mixing in generation in the future? such as they "overlap" with a noise filter of which ore gets the tile. Otherwise tiles that are mixed/dirty and produce multiple ore types like when a miner covers different patches. I feel that the current system of them only touching on the edges and essentially destroying the initial patch when it gets generated remove complexity and feels odd in how the generation looks and feels.

A mixed/dirty ore tile requiring extra steps is likely too complex for the design image which is why i'd propose multiple ore type outputs. This then questions the need of mixed/combination textures which would be a lot of work for the combinations. I believe a checkerboard or noise filter approach on the placement in overlapping ore zones would be the simplest approach.
I actually introduced a bug in Diggy where multiple ores were generated in the same tile.
This presented an additional challenge when you wanted to mine ore mixed with uranium !
"Uranium copper" looked cool though ! :lol:

EDIT : pic :
factorio_2018-11-17_16-25-43.png
factorio_2018-11-17_16-25-43.png (705.71 KiB) Viewed 1873 times

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:50 am

Philip017 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:44 pm
regarding spawner pollution hoarding, i guess that means that the blinking away of the pollution on the map indicating the presence of a new base will be minimized
Why would that be ?

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by <NO_NAME> » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:03 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:44 am
factorio_2018-11-17_16-25-43.png
Argh! My eyes! What monster places pavement under ores? And how is this even possible?!
I am a translator. And what you did for Factorio?
Check out my mod "Realistic Ores" and my other mods!

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:17 pm

<NO_NAME> wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:03 pm
BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:44 am
factorio_2018-11-17_16-25-43.png
Argh! My eyes! What monster places pavement under ores? And how is this even possible?!
EDIT2 : Because there's so much ore on the map, you're forced to place pavement/ buildings on top of it.

Redmew has created their own ore generator :
Image
EDIT : The ore is not initially present on the map though, but only spawned when you dig a rock.
My bug made it so that multiple rocks were spawned on the same tile.

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:26 pm

Shingen wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:57 pm
Egdod wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:45 pm
Only effective method is to jump in the middle? Are we playing the same game? Turret creep, nukes, kiting an ever decreasing circle focusing on spawners, slowly advancing in a tank using explosive rounds supported by bots and personal lasers, poison capsules....that’s five ways off the top of my head, all a lot better (safer?) than jumping into the middle 😝
well, alright, i didn't specify, but i was talking about early-mid game here, so no nukes (or artillery).
turret creep works, i give you that. however, it's bothersome, boring, and OP.
slowly advancing (which turret creep is a form of) works ONLY if you have enough firepower to blast everything to oblivion before it gets to you (and since in my experience in most cases they all attack at the same time that's a LOT of firepower). as i said, i want a safer solution.
poison capsules? maybe. tbh i've never used them.
and the last remaining thing is literally my solution - jumping in, trying to destroy the spawners, while kiting the horde following you.

again: the problem is that they respawn so fast, that you're unable to kill them fast enough, unless you're incredibly geared up.
There are specific situations where jumping in the middle is the best strategy, but they don't really seem to be present in vanilla.
They require :
- No access to green science (so no piercing ammo, no grenades, and damage/speed upgrades limited to +10%) - I'm looking at you Pyanodon ! ;)
- Red Biters (so it's wasteful to use regular ammo against them)
- Worms limited to None or Small (Medium seem kind of hopeless, I haven't been desperate enough to try).

A strategy that seems to work is then to run around the spawner while hugging it and shooting it with the shotgun, with biters following you, and occasionally biting, but not as hard as they would if the spawner wasn't protecting you !
Azzinoth wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:41 am
Shingen wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:30 pm
oh, the conversation about enemy spawners/bases reminded me of this annoying issue in Factorio with destroying them: the biters respawn WAY to quickly imo.
Thats a problem i had with the biters since the beginning. They respawn so fast that you have do destroy the nests before the biters. That feels odd, because you would naturally think that aliens chasing you are a greater threat than their static nests, so you would want to kill them first and then destroy their nests when its safe.
Maybe we could make the biter a bit tougher so that you have a nice fight and then make them respawn much slower?
If you can lead the aliens away, with only worms left back to defend, it would make destroying the nests too easy, considering how many weapons outrange worms...
CDarklock wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:05 am
And I am a little worried that the new changes are going to make them a bigger threat for a longer period, to the point that playing the game becomes frustrating to me. I'm also worried that because we have so much flexibility in configuring a new game, the default settings will be tailored to the average hardcore veteran with thousands of hours in-game and an active presence in the community, instead of the actual average player.
Bigger threat, looks like it ; for a longer period, I doubt it, unless there was a significant flame turret nerf that I skipped ?
But they are probably too powerful anyway, and maybe should be rebalanced to make them more comparable to other static defenses ?

Though the actual average EDIT: median player barely gets to oil anyway, and I have only a very fragmented understanding of how they play.
Polluting without any care is likely to be punished much more !
(But will the spawner density in the typical game be high enough at that point ?

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by bobucles » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:56 pm

You can just make solid fuel from light oil. There is no other product that you could make from light oil, and cracking is unlocked later. Typically light oil is the one that usually deadlocks soonest without cracking as it is somewhat likely you will consume heavy for lubricant... So you are not making any extra refinery than you would need for the petroleum gas, you are just using light oil and delaying the deadlock.
Pfffffffft. Everyone knows you're supposed to bank the light oil, research advanced cracking as your first blue tech, and dunk it all into petrol cracking. :D

The devs will have to be very careful about how the difficulty gets tweaked. The big reason is because of how flat armor reduction works. It may be best to think of flat reduction as a rising lava floor, where things are perfectly fine until the lava starts getting close. Once the lava reaches ya it's pretty much game over. In this type of game it is VERY difficult to get players the right distance from that "lava floor" as there is a lot of power creep "elevation" to work with. If the player races ahead they are pretty safe, but if they don't hvae the power to penetrate armor then they will get steamrolled very badly.

Of course that only applies to bullet ammo. The higher tier weapon types have no problems against biter armor, but maybe that's worth some combat tweaks as well.

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by bobucles » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:48 pm

It's good to see that biter pollution is getting fixed, but that may create another problem. What if biters can't path? That is a common issue with biter islands or just very large map features. If biters can't path then they can't attack. If they can't attack then the nests will max out, and if the nests max out then the pollution will continue creeping into new territory. Chances are the new territory will also not have pathing, so the problem repeats. Won't that cause map bloat? The pollution absorption by land is far less effective than from nests so a LOT more land will have to be covered to clean up the red cloud.

Clearly there is a need for biters to attack if their nests max out. If they can't then the pollution will pile up.

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by Ranakastrasz » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:12 pm

They covered biter pathing in the Friday facts.
Admittedly I am skepticle until I actually see it in action.
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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:45 pm

bobucles wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:48 pm
The pollution absorption by land is far less effective than from nests so a LOT more land will have to be covered to clean up the red cloud.
Depends, trees are pretty good at absorbing pollution (and the absorbing surfaces on average rises as the square of the radius).

It would be funny if an island were so full of biters that they would start spawning on the closest land...

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by Davolution » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:54 pm

posila wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:22 pm
Davolution wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:11 pm
Can I assume that next Monday, the 25th would be the release of 0.17?
It would be very unwise to assume it's gonna be on Monday. The thing is, we are not sitting on a thing that is ready to release, and will release it as soon as it seems to be in good enough state, so it is impossible to say exact day. It definitelly won't be on Friday, hopefully not Thursday, hopefully some day before Thursday.
That make totally sense! Thanks for the little bit more information!

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by CDarklock » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:08 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:26 pm
Though the actual average EDIT: median player barely gets to oil anyway, and I have only a very fragmented understanding of how they play.
Once I got the rocket silo technology, the game changed from sandbox to death march. After I launched, it went back to sandbox again.

I suspect most players enjoy the death march more than the sandbox, so once they've completed it, they start a new game to get into another one. And they race to it as quickly as possible, making the first part of the game into a death march, too. So you need oil technology to launch the rocket, but there's a lot of other stuff you don't need at all, and they just don't bother.

This suspicion largely comes from the glut of players who clog Steam forums after every RPG release, complaining that the campaign was only twelve hours. They have an open world the size of Nebraska and they've only seen a dozen locations, but they got to the end and they're done. The only way they can imagine continuing to play is to start a new game.

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by Hanse00 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:19 pm

ili wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:28 am
Rseding91 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:46 pm
Cyclonut wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:34 pm
What, not released today, but you promised last week. I even left work early to see the new 0.17 relase!
No we didn't. Where are you reading that?
What, not released today? I just thrown my ID card on my boss desk and told him I quit so I can play!
What, no release today, I just spent 30 minutes digging up my Factorio forum account for this!

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Re: Friday Facts #283 - Prepare to Launch

Post by WarpZone » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:39 pm

Gotta say, I'm not happy about the belt nerf at all. I know, I know, "it's not a belt nerf, it's a biter fix." Semantics. Fact is, there are fun designs for belt-based defenses on factorioprints that won't be viable anymore come 0.17.

Just like when you floated the idea of removing bots from the game, you're taking away a quirky optional playstyle and not adding two new playstyles to replace it, so how is this added value for the players?

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