Fluids keep mixing

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Bakedblue
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Fluids keep mixing

Post by Bakedblue » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:15 pm

I have a series of LTN stations set up to provide and request fluids. I keep finding that the wrong fluids end up in a train and then it delivers to the wrong station. I expect that for some reason it's not fully emptying a wagon of fluid and the mix up happens when the train is sent on the next delivery.

Image

I got around this problem with items being delivered by using filter inserters but you can't filter fluids.

Does anyone have a solution?

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by eduran » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:50 pm

Check out the fluid stations in this post (or on factorioprints ). That should give you an idea of how to use circuit-connected pumps with LTN.
From my experience, such incidents have always been due to some mistake in station settings or design. The worst fluid accident happened when I set some train length limits wrong and a full length 8 train tried to unload at a station designed for just two wagons. After the default time out it left and started distributing sulfuric acid everywhere :oops:

Some time soon you might be able to use a mod I am working on to figure out from which delivery the problem originated :) :
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What was supposed to be delivered is shown in green at the top. Anything remaining in the train after the delivery finishes

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Optera » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:51 pm

Pumps are a bit too dumb for my liking, but there are ways around that.
I have a station providing sulfuric acid on one side and lubricant on the other.

Fluid Provider:
- Each pump has to be set to "fluid" > 0
2019-01-28-17-48-24-6602634.png
2019-01-28-17-48-24-6602634.png (784.02 KiB) Viewed 732 times


Fluid Requester:
Unloading is a lot trickier since Factorio rounds mathematically correct when converting float values used for fluids into circuit network and train signals. see known issues
- for simplicity I prefer using Inventory Sensor, which is always rounding fluids up.
- as before each pump has to be set to "fluid" > 0
- with "Schedule circuit conditions" enabled the decider will lock trains in the station until every drop of "fluid" has been emptied
2019-01-28-18-38-45-2908621.png
2019-01-28-18-38-45-2908621.png (830.27 KiB) Viewed 722 times

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Bakedblue » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:17 pm

Thanks for your swift reply Eduran and Optera.

Yes, I suspect I made a mistake somewhere Eduran. I'll take a look at your post and see if I can figure out where I went wrong. It looks pretty extensive so thanks.

I've just loaded the Inventory Sensor mod Optera. It looks to be a nice simple solution. Thanks for the recommendation and blueprint. Much appreciate.

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by GrumpyJoe » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:37 pm

Im a bit confused now.

I knew about this 0.x "fluid" being left in the tank from an earlier game, screwing up fluid stations.
So i set up some circuits to delay the depature. But i never looked at it in the early game, if it was needed.

Now that im fully teched up in AB, im exclusivly using MK4 pumps (2/wagon into 2 MK4 tanks) and there is always room in the tank to empty the wagons, from my request setup circuits.
But im also looking at the schedules for the first time in ages and i see:

Fluid: "Fluid type" = 0
AND Empty cargo inventory
OR 120 seconds passed

While "cargo" schedules say

Cargo: "Cargo type" = 0
AND 2 seconds inactivity
OR 120 seconds passed

Was is always that way? Or did you find that the "empty cargo" in fluid schedules was less likely to cause trouble and change that.
Im just asking, because on a creative test map, i had ~500 deliveries so far (counting with circuits at depot), and as far as i can tell, not one came back to the depot with fluid between 0 and 1. That is, if my alarm circuit would go off between 0 and 1. Only watched the train for about 20 circles.
The stations have practicly no circuits other than provide/request amounts, i didn´t use my BP, just wanted to test and slammed it together.

Or is it just the MK4 pumps working so fast, the train will more likely (always) empty until its REALLY zero?

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Optera » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:56 am

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:37 pm
Was is always that way? Or did you find that the "empty cargo" in fluid schedules was less likely to cause trouble and change that.
This special treatment has been there since fluid wagons became a feature of base factorio for exactly the reason you outlined.
crude-oil = 0 will trigger at 0.4
empty cargo uses the double values to check if it truly is empty
GrumpyJoe wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:37 pm
Or is it just the MK4 pumps working so fast, the train will more likely (always) empty until its REALLY zero?
Inactivity rules also apply to fluid pumps, so speed is not an issue.
It's a safeguard as players tend not to leave ample free space in fluid unloading stations. Since 0.16.8 lowered fluid wagon capacity to 25k that might have become less of an issue.

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by GrumpyJoe » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:54 pm

thank you for the answer. i wasn´t sure about this, since its alot to remember over the months, and since i dont pay attention to whats working.....

So, if there is enough room in the tank to empty the wagon (with carefully chosing combinator logic), combined with "empty cargo" in the schedule, should i worry about fluids "mixing" at all?

And im using Mk3 fluid wagons, back to 50k :D

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Optera » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:06 pm

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:54 pm
So, if there is enough room in the tank to empty the wagon (with carefully chosing combinator logic), combined with "empty cargo" in the schedule, should i worry about fluids "mixing" at all?
As long as requests are ~90% max tank capacity I never had any residue.

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by ssilk » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:14 pm

Hi,

does this has to do with this issue: My fluid train runs to the station and is not unloaded.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58cm7v5bu9q52 ... d.zip?dl=0

What you will see (sorry for the number of mods):
- You sit in the train to the refinery-crude-unloader
- When the train arrives at the stop no pump begins to be moved into the wagons, the train is just waiting
- (when you wait some minutes, the train will continue (cause of timeout) and drives to the DepotFL-station, where it will raise an alarm)

I tooks me hours to have a useable save for this bug, cause the alarm at DepotFL-Station is called some minutes later and takes a while.
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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by eduran » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:32 pm

Do you have a screenshot of the stop, ideally with circuit settings for your pumps?

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Optera » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:39 pm

ssilk wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:14 pm
does this has to do with this issue: My fluid train runs to the station and is not unloaded.
Not at all.
What you got there is a failure of base game mechanics. The pumps simply refuse to connect to tank wagons.
If I drive it out of the stop and back in it'll connect.

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by GrumpyJoe » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:08 pm

ssilk wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:14 pm
I tooks me hours to have a useable save for this bug, cause the alarm at DepotFL-Station is called some minutes later and takes a while.
do you have LTN warnings disabled? Your problem should put a timeout message, long before it reaches the depot where it clears the schedule and cant be tracked easily

also: holy sh**, thats some mod list. I downloaded the file, but no way im loading all those mods :D

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by ssilk » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:54 pm

@ eduran: the station and pumps are not connected to circuits (only the input lamp of the station is connected of course)

@optera: Exactly what I saw. It is even more strange: When I managed to take my own train to arrive before this train comes in, this bug doesn't happen anymore. It seems to me, that the pumps are in a special state after the previous train leaves or so.

Is there a bug report?


@GrumpyJoe: Really no way to play this map with warnings turned on. ;)
and it should be playable by downloading only the following mods:
- AirFilter
- LTN
- Construction Signaler
More should not be needed
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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by GrumpyJoe » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 am

i downloaded air filter and construction signaler, had LTN and a few others
20190210062439_1.png
20190210062439_1.png (203.51 KiB) Viewed 561 times
if that save file was intended to arrive at crude unloading and show a not working fluid unload, i dont see a problem
Its unloaded in like a second. crude = zero. seems to work just fine. reloaded it 3 times
maybe some other mod? Signaling deleted by not having all the mods?



2 offtopic things:
has anyone reported the "bug" that in the mod list capital letters are sorted first, then the lower ones, still alphabeticly? I just noticed that when looking for "air filter" when i didn´t find it at the top of the list of mods to sync

and im happy to see im not the only one who thought about LTN depot stackers. However, with a different setup, 3 deep x20 stations, my trains have problems detecting free blocks. when its too full, the last row only goes to the top or bottom station.
i had to build a stacker before the stacker :shock:
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Optera
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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Optera » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:47 am

Please stay on topic.

Here's a debate and solution for stackers: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62758

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:17 am

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 am
has anyone reported the "bug" that in the mod list capital letters are sorted first, then the lower ones, still alphabeticly? I just noticed that when looking for "air filter" when i didn´t find it at the top of the list of mods to sync
I'm surprised that I couldn't find a thread dedicated to that...
I created one :
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=64836

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by ssilk » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:12 am

GrumpyJoe wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 am
i downloaded air filter and construction signaler, had LTN and a few others

if that save file was intended to arrive at crude unloading and show a not working fluid unload, i dont see a problem
Its unloaded in like a second. crude = zero. seems to work just fine. reloaded it 3 times
maybe some other mod? Signaling deleted by not having all the mods?
Nice, thank you. I will try to find out which mod will make it work wrong.
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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by ravage666 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am

The Fluid Requester Bluprint string is the same as Fluid Provider.
Optera wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:51 pm
Pumps are a bit too dumb for my liking, but there are ways around that.
I have a station providing sulfuric acid on one side and lubricant on the other.

Fluid Provider:
- Each pump has to be set to "fluid" > 0
2019-01-28-17-48-24-6602634.png


Fluid Requester:
Unloading is a lot trickier since Factorio rounds mathematically correct when converting float values used for fluids into circuit network and train signals. see known issues
- for simplicity I prefer using Inventory Sensor, which is always rounding fluids up.
- as before each pump has to be set to "fluid" > 0
- with "Schedule circuit conditions" enabled the decider will lock trains in the station until every drop of "fluid" has been emptied
2019-01-28-18-38-45-2908621.png

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Re: Fluids keep mixing

Post by Optera » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:09 pm

ravage666 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am
The Fluid Requester Bluprint string is the same as Fluid Provider.
fixed

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