Lategame mining options are lacking

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Rjskeet
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Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Rjskeet » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:11 pm

So Does anyone else feel that late game mining is just very boring? Every outpost is the same, max density and as much mining as possible and usually 300 drills or more. When you have 10 different outposts the ups hit is kinda large. So are we ever going to see a larger mining machine like a bucket wheel or just an XL for vanilla? and would many people like like to us it? share your thoughts. (yes i know there are mods for this ,but mods disable achievements)

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by mrt144 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm

What would variety in late game mining options add really besides a sense of novelty and breaking up monotony.

I think one of the paradoxes of games in general is that people will seek out optimizations to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal but then complain about how there aren't myriad ways to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal.

I see this kind of thing play out across a lot of games but especially in 1v1 games where there is a facile colorful meta but only a handful of truly competitive characters/teams/pokemon within the meta. Which just beckons for the userbase to desire many equal yet disparate options to win.

For a game like Factorio, I understand the monotony angle quite well. On the other hand, isn't a premise in the game building a design that works and then scaling that design up or integrating it into what already exists?

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by netmand » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:49 pm

hmmm, I'll have to get back to you I'm busy debugging my rail paths every time I add a handful of new resource outposts...

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by mrt144 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 pm

netmand wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:49 pm
hmmm, I'll have to get back to you I'm busy debugging my rail paths every time I add a handful of new resource outposts...
Welcome to the sacred club, acolyte! :lol:

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by leadraven » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:35 pm

Ore processing is definitely devoid of progress. Electric drill is available from the start, and that's all. No more processing before smelting.
Some over-complicated mods add lots of processing, but we want vanilla to be as awesome as possible.
I'd say, entire technological branch of ore processing must be added. More machines and logistics.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by mrvn » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:10 pm

Tip: For end game mining use the minimum density. That way the patches last longer and you maximize the ore gained per click.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by HalfPastZulu » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:12 am

mrt144 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm
What would variety in late game mining options add really besides a sense of novelty and breaking up monotony.

I think one of the paradoxes of games in general is that people will seek out optimizations to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal but then complain about how there aren't myriad ways to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal.

I see this kind of thing play out across a lot of games but especially in 1v1 games where there is a facile colorful meta but only a handful of truly competitive characters/teams/pokemon within the meta. Which just beckons for the userbase to desire many equal yet disparate options to win.

For a game like Factorio, I understand the monotony angle quite well. On the other hand, isn't a premise in the game building a design that works and then scaling that design up or integrating it into what already exists?
I think you are mostly correct, or at least I feel the same way. However, Factorio is kinda unique in that the current end game is really based on your PC's FPS. Not many games out there end by your pc coming to a grinding halt. So, better advanced mining for late game would not just be about novelty or breaking up monotony, it would be for the most part the ability to continue scaling without breaking your pc. Large scale means lots of resources and something like the Bagger 228 would cost a tremendous amount of resources, but would also mine a large portion of the deposit. Its just an example but you see the point. Of course, these kind of improvements or scale-ups can always be reserved for future DLC content.

Edit on 2/9/2019:
I would like to add that any kind of advanced mining should only be available after first rocket launch IMHO. :-)
Last edited by HalfPastZulu on Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Rjskeet » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:15 am

HalfPastZulu wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:12 am
mrt144 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm
What would variety in late game mining options add really besides a sense of novelty and breaking up monotony.

I think one of the paradoxes of games in general is that people will seek out optimizations to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal but then complain about how there aren't myriad ways to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal.

I see this kind of thing play out across a lot of games but especially in 1v1 games where there is a facile colorful meta but only a handful of truly competitive characters/teams/pokemon within the meta. Which just beckons for the userbase to desire many equal yet disparate options to win.

For a game like Factorio, I understand the monotony angle quite well. On the other hand, isn't a premise in the game building a design that works and then scaling that design up or integrating it into what already exists?
I think you are mostly correct, or at least I feel the same way. However, Factorio is kinda unique in that the current end game is really based on your PC's FPS. Not many games out there end by your pc coming to a grinding halt. So, better advanced mining for late game would not just be about novelty or breaking up monotony, it would be for the most part the ability to continue scaling without breaking your pc. Large scale means lots of resources and something like the Bagger 228 would cost a tremendous amount of resources, but would also mine a large portion of the deposit. Its just an example but you see the point. Of course, these kind of improvements or scale-ups can always be reserved for future DLC content.
Yup this is what I ment to say. So instead of having hundreds of one mining unit you could have Maybe 4 or 5 that put out a ton of ore but have a very big hit box and the challenge would move to making production lines for these massive mining units, think destroyer capsules, you start with the basics ammo and by the end you are putting in speed modules to get laser shooting flying death spheres

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by GrumpyJoe » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:52 am

Rjskeet wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:15 am
....... think destroyer capsules, you start with the basics ammo and by the end you are putting in speed modules to get laser shooting flying death spheres
thats an interesting point. in about 2500h of playtime i only had combat robotics built/used cos someone on my team placed a "build it all BP". Iirc that Clowntown green circuit event lasted like 2-4 hours?
i only know it has a rather complicated build path (at least for vanilla, personally im used to it, since im playing mostly AB), but thats ~0.1% of my game time and i havn´t put that up myself.
It has an advanced and even infinite tech tree.
Im still lacking the "follower"(?) achievment.
Im also watching alot of Youtube, and i cant remember anyone using capsules, even in death world.

While miners are there from the start and stay the same, no matter how you build your factory. I like the approach of the Antfarm using creative mode chests to supply that base, because mining is an essential part of the game, but is so not interesting when looking at pure mining. The interesting part is the logistics of mined ore.
Just while typing that i had some ideas for a mod, but it wouldn´t hurt the base game to have something that enhances mining, other than productivity research

That might all be because robots are not worth it in balance (i wouldn´t know) or that you have better options against biters (or in PvP) when you finally get to it.
But miners vs. combat robots got to be the most unbalanced thing, when thinking about actual usage across all players and research/build complexity

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Rjskeet » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:38 pm

Yea, I use destroyers constantly... A large part of my base is usually dedicated to there manufacturing and I always carry a small cache of like 200 at all times, and yea everyone overlooks the mines themselves another analogue to this is looking at power generation in a factory, before there were only 2 types of min/max setups either fuel fed boilers leading into steam engines that generate a lot of pollution or massive solar /accumulator fields for a pollution free method, and now we have a third late game option In nuclear power that is almost infinitely scalable if you have the space and the logistics to supply it ( I have managed a 2.4 Gw reactor that's the size of my whole starter area)

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by mrt144 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm

HalfPastZulu wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:12 am
mrt144 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm
What would variety in late game mining options add really besides a sense of novelty and breaking up monotony.

I think one of the paradoxes of games in general is that people will seek out optimizations to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal but then complain about how there aren't myriad ways to 'win' or 'accomplish' a goal.

I see this kind of thing play out across a lot of games but especially in 1v1 games where there is a facile colorful meta but only a handful of truly competitive characters/teams/pokemon within the meta. Which just beckons for the userbase to desire many equal yet disparate options to win.

For a game like Factorio, I understand the monotony angle quite well. On the other hand, isn't a premise in the game building a design that works and then scaling that design up or integrating it into what already exists?
I think you are mostly correct, or at least I feel the same way. However, Factorio is kinda unique in that the current end game is really based on your PC's FPS. Not many games out there end by your pc coming to a grinding halt. So, better advanced mining for late game would not just be about novelty or breaking up monotony, it would be for the most part the ability to continue scaling without breaking your pc. Large scale means lots of resources and something like the Bagger 228 would cost a tremendous amount of resources, but would also mine a large portion of the deposit. Its just an example but you see the point. Of course, these kind of improvements or scale-ups can always be reserved for future DLC content.
That's actually a very good point - if there was a way to conserve UPS for mines through upgrades, that'd serve a functional purpose for their use in game. Wish I had thought of that aspect!

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Jeeto » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:55 pm

Maybe an end-game research called "Strip mining" that allows you to build a 12x12 or 15x15 machine that can mine an area of 20x20?

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by leadraven » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:19 pm

Jeeto wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:55 pm
Maybe an end-game research called "Strip mining" that allows you to build a 12x12 or 15x15 machine that can mine an area of 20x20?
Be more creative. Simplicity isn't what we need.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by FrodoOf9Fingers » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:54 pm

I think is an excellabt point: minning outposts are kinda lame. They take a lot of my time, and are generally boring.

Larger machines would be nice (especially if they had output related nicely to the speed of a belt) but I would hate more square things. BORING. I would like to see non square miners. I would also really like them to work well with sub stations (I dont think there are enough uses for these), so even number sizes. One idea may be for miners to be linkable, IE one miner outputs to the next, and all output ends up on a belt or box.

Another idea is to bring in minning bots that do minning like in starcraft.

But spicing up minning late, even just making it easier to automate the building of minning outposts, would be very welcome.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Rjskeet » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:33 pm

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:54 pm
I think is an excellabt point: minning outposts are kinda lame. They take a lot of my time, and are generally boring.

Larger machines would be nice (especially if they had output related nicely to the speed of a belt) but I would hate more square things. BORING. I would like to see non square miners. I would also really like them to work well with sub stations (I dont think there are enough uses for these), so even number sizes. One idea may be for miners to be linkable, IE one miner outputs to the next, and all output ends up on a belt or box.

Another idea is to bring in minning bots that do minning like in starcraft.

But spicing up minning late, even just making it easier to automate the building of minning outposts, would be very welcome.
An earlier post did suggest having something akin to bucket wheel excavators, and indeed there is a mod for them(I use it), I feel like bots would defeat the purpose of getting rid of a lot of moving entities in the game for ups reasons. And Maybe a deep core mining drill that utilizes satellites launched by the rocket could be a thing

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by FrodoOf9Fingers » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:55 pm

What, using bots for literally everything is bad? :p

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Rjskeet » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:18 am

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:55 pm
What, using bots for literally everything is bad? :p
Lol if you want to you could this is factorio

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Bauer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:59 am

Factorio a game about automation. (Hand-crafting --> (assembly) machines)
And about the automation of automation. (Hand-placing --> blue prints/bots)

Mining and alien annihilation are the only things in late game that cannot be "level 2" automated.

The artillerie is a move in the right direction for the alien thing. It doesn't move your defence line automatically, though.
For mining, we have nothing. When a patch is empty, you have to develop a new patch in mid-game style. By walking there and placing blueprint "fragments" and adding a lot of stuff manually. Even if you use bots to bring the stuff from the miner to the train staition.

What we need is a sexy idea how to introduce a new concept that is adequate for late game. I'm sure that a 20x20 miner is not the answer.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Hannu » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:35 am

Bauer wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:59 am
What we need is a sexy idea how to introduce a new concept that is adequate for late game. I'm sure that a 20x20 miner is not the answer.
I agree. Increasing size and speed of the miners would give a bigger factories, but it is difficult to see any real and interesting change. Megabase builders would just build more assemblers and continue whining about UPS but there would not be any new and interesting planning challenges. In my opinion devs have already sacrificed too much interesting and aesthetic ideas for only one extreme playstyle. Of course I appreciate excellent programming which make it possible to build larger and more complex (modded) bases than probably in any other game, but it should not be the only objective.

I do not expect significant changes in this part of development, but there could be automated bots ("real" bots and not immaterial ghost bots like current bots) to search ores and some kind of automated utilization possibilities too. That would move focus from boring copying of thousands of entities to get large number on screen to planning how to arrange scouting and ore searching and later military and mining operations. There could be less ore deposits and they could be difficult to find.

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Re: Lategame mining options are lacking

Post by Bauer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:57 am

The only idea that would match this is AAI programmable vehicles.
The mod is too complicated to be integrated in vanilla.

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