Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

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leadraven
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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by leadraven » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:14 am

Koub wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:50 am
leadraven wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:22 am
bobucles wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:13 am
Belt splitting is great and it makes belts more powerful to use. There's nothing wrong with that.
Belt splitting is totally great, but it should be done through a proper intuitive device (like splitter), not through this ridiculous inappropriate exploit.
Belt splitting is like marmite. There is no point arguing if it's good or bade, it's just a matter of taste.
Then why Splitter was upgraded with balancing and filtering? Before it belt management was completely player's headache. And everything was fine and solid. But now, with advanced Splitter, lack of proper lane-management tool is pronounced.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by mrvn » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:23 pm

The only thing to argue is that there probably should be a belt splitter entity that isn't also an underground belt. Just a flat belt with one side of the belt blocked by a barrier.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by <NO_NAME> » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:48 pm

mrvn wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:23 pm
The only thing to argue is that there probably should be a belt splitter entity that isn't also an underground belt. Just a flat belt with one side of the belt blocked by a barrier.
This. Belt splitting is just taking too much space for such a basic thing.
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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by mrvn » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:03 pm

<NO_NAME> wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:48 pm
mrvn wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:23 pm
The only thing to argue is that there probably should be a belt splitter entity that isn't also an underground belt. Just a flat belt with one side of the belt blocked by a barrier.
This. Belt splitting is just taking too much space for such a basic thing.
I'm talking about a 1x1 tile big belt with one side of the belt blocked and the other flowing through. It could even function like a normal belt and go straight or around a corner. Wouldn't take any extra space at all, be completely inline to the belt. (although if you go around the corner it's basically an underground belt).

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm

No one is going to win over any developer of this game with an idea that includes the words "new" and "belt" in that order with no words in between, unless there's a negation in there somewhere like "no new belt" or "there is no need with my idea for a new belt type" or something like that.

It's not going to happen and after much hand wringing over the 1x1 lane splitter that I'd still like to see, I agree with them.
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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by astroshak » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:33 pm

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm
the 1x1 lane splitter that I'd still like to see, I agree with them.
There’s a mod for that. Sadly, it seems to be stuck at Yellow Belt Speed.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by 5thHorseman » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:37 pm

astroshak wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:33 pm
5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:46 pm
the 1x1 lane splitter that I'd still like to see, I agree with them.
There’s a mod for that. Sadly, it seems to be stuck at Yellow Belt Speed.
You basically can't mod belts without rewriting game code and/or slowing the game down. At least that's what people smarter than me say.
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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by astroshak » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:54 am

That might be why the single splitter in the mod is limited to yellow belt speed. I don’t know. You’d have to talk to the author of the mod.

Then again, there are mods out there with different speed belts, Bob’s is one. I’ve not really done much with it, so no idea whether it slows the game down later on. But, there are mods out there with higher belt speeds. Just no mods out there with a faster single splitter.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by Zavian » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:53 am

astroshak wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:54 am
Then again, there are mods out there with different speed belts, Bob’s is one. I’ve not really done much with it, so no idea whether it slows the game down later on. But, there are mods out there with higher belt speeds. Just no mods out there with a faster single splitter.
As far as I know, Bob doesn't change the belt mechanics, he simply tells the game that this class of belts has a speed of x.xx units per tick. A single belt belt balancer needs new gameplay mechanics that don't exist in vanilla, and would need to be implemented in Lua.

Edit: What might be possible, and could be fairly performant is making a single item that implements
belt -> loader -> chest -> loader -> belt (The chest bit might not even be required).
That will function as lane balancer and can probably be made fairly performant.

Another alternative would be to hide 4 very fast inserters into a structure the size of one belt piece, with 1 inserter picking up from the left hand lane, and depositing on the left hand lane, another picking up from the left hand lane, and depositing on the right hand lane, then the other pair picking up from the right hand lane, and depositing on the left and right hand lanes. Again uses existing game mechanics to create something that should function as a lane balance, and should perform fairly well. I'm pretty sure that one of the loader mods works in a similar manner.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by mrvn » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:08 am

Zavian wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:53 am
astroshak wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:54 am
Then again, there are mods out there with different speed belts, Bob’s is one. I’ve not really done much with it, so no idea whether it slows the game down later on. But, there are mods out there with higher belt speeds. Just no mods out there with a faster single splitter.
As far as I know, Bob doesn't change the belt mechanics, he simply tells the game that this class of belts has a speed of x.xx units per tick. A single belt belt balancer needs new gameplay mechanics that don't exist in vanilla, and would need to be implemented in Lua.

Edit: What might be possible, and could be fairly performant is making a single item that implements
belt -> loader -> chest -> loader -> belt (The chest bit might not even be required).
That will function as lane balancer and can probably be made fairly performant.

Another alternative would be to hide 4 very fast inserters into a structure the size of one belt piece, with 1 inserter picking up from the left hand lane, and depositing on the left hand lane, another picking up from the left hand lane, and depositing on the right hand lane, then the other pair picking up from the right hand lane, and depositing on the left and right hand lanes. Again uses existing game mechanics to create something that should function as a lane balance, and should perform fairly well. I'm pretty sure that one of the loader mods works in a similar manner.
I actually use belt -> loader -> chest -> loader -> belt in a few places. It doesn't balance though as the loader will output to one side first and only fill the other side if the first is full. So anything below 1/2 belt speed will only use one side. I use it for the buffer effect the chest gives though.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by McDuff » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:42 pm

mrvn wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:08 am
Zavian wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:53 am
astroshak wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:54 am
Then again, there are mods out there with different speed belts, Bob’s is one. I’ve not really done much with it, so no idea whether it slows the game down later on. But, there are mods out there with higher belt speeds. Just no mods out there with a faster single splitter.
As far as I know, Bob doesn't change the belt mechanics, he simply tells the game that this class of belts has a speed of x.xx units per tick. A single belt belt balancer needs new gameplay mechanics that don't exist in vanilla, and would need to be implemented in Lua.

Edit: What might be possible, and could be fairly performant is making a single item that implements
belt -> loader -> chest -> loader -> belt (The chest bit might not even be required).
That will function as lane balancer and can probably be made fairly performant.

Another alternative would be to hide 4 very fast inserters into a structure the size of one belt piece, with 1 inserter picking up from the left hand lane, and depositing on the left hand lane, another picking up from the left hand lane, and depositing on the right hand lane, then the other pair picking up from the right hand lane, and depositing on the left and right hand lanes. Again uses existing game mechanics to create something that should function as a lane balance, and should perform fairly well. I'm pretty sure that one of the loader mods works in a similar manner.
I actually use belt -> loader -> chest -> loader -> belt in a few places. It doesn't balance though as the loader will output to one side first and only fill the other side if the first is full. So anything below 1/2 belt speed will only use one side. I use it for the buffer effect the chest gives though.
Yeah "loader->chest->loader" is a great little "inline storage buffer" but it doesn't balance lanes, just gives you somewhere for excesses to flow.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by Zavian » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:40 am

McDuff wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:42 pm
Yeah "loader->chest->loader" is a great little "inline storage buffer" but it doesn't balance lanes, just gives you somewhere for excesses to flow.
Interesting. I had never noticed that before. After a quick bit of testing, it seems to depend on the loader mod used. Mini-loaders do balance (at least in my quick test), and loaders redux don't balance. However both do output to both sides of the belt, so in most common cases loader->chest->loader forms an effective lane balancer anytime the chest isn't either empty or full.

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Re: Friday Facts #269 - Roadmap update & Transport belt perspective

Post by mrvn » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:10 pm

Zavian wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:40 am
McDuff wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:42 pm
Yeah "loader->chest->loader" is a great little "inline storage buffer" but it doesn't balance lanes, just gives you somewhere for excesses to flow.
Interesting. I had never noticed that before. After a quick bit of testing, it seems to depend on the loader mod used. Mini-loaders do balance (at least in my quick test), and loaders redux don't balance. However both do output to both sides of the belt, so in most common cases loader->chest->loader forms an effective lane balancer anytime the chest isn't either empty or full.
Iirc mini-loaders use inserters. I'm talking about the vanilla loader entity with whatever graphic a mod might use for them.

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