Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

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Beuteschema
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Beuteschema » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:51 pm

i think the research queue would have been a great feature to have new players simply would have to use it

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by factoriouzr » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:38 pm

The research queue is badly needed and scrapping it is a bad idea.

I hate being interrupted every few seconds or minutes while designing my factory or going to fend off a biter attack, repair something etc by having to pick another research. This problem is even more obvious late game when I'm trying to complete the researches I don't really care about and because my factory produces so much very fast, it's constant interruptions. I know I can choose to ignore the bright and annoying flashing area, but guess what, it's annoying and distracting. It takes my focus away from what I want to focus on now. So now I have to press T twice to quickly open and close the research window to get rid of the annoying flashing. However this isn't the solution. While I'm busy and deep in thought about my factory or busy saving my base from biters, the research is stopped and thus wasting time and making it take longer for me to progress through the game. Science packs are not produced anymore because their limits were reached and again slowing down progress. Plus, not to mention that I played this game hundreds of times and I'm tired of picking every single research one by one. This is a game about automation, I want to automate research as well.

Oh and lets not forget all the useless technologies you have to research to get to many of the things you actually want. Many technologies don't give anything useful or cool to play with to the player, they are just useless stepping stones to better things.

Your argument for getting rid of the research queue doesn't make sense. It's a much requested feature, and even with the queue, nothing is stopping new players from picking one technology at a time. The proper way to address this is to have a research log or something similar when you open the research window that shows the last things that were researched (or perhaps all things that were ever researched in order) that way players can glance at that and see what happened. Removing such a useful feature when the problem you talk about doesn't even exist, is not a good solution. A log would easily work and keeps the players informed.

I want to pick a research down the tree and have all per-requisites be researched automatically. I also want to be able to pick an infinite research and having it keep going forever (this is great late game).

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Jürgen Erhard » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:31 am

The problem with the research queue is that the notification system is, frankly, utter garbage.

You (I mean all of you devs) have played other games, haven't you? Ones with notification systems? Tell me one where notifications are that limited: they only notify of a *small* set of events (a very very limited set). They only blink in some corner of the screen. *AND* they are not accessible "after the fact". You were busy with something else or just didn't click/hover quick enough? Too bad, the notification is gone.

That needs fixin'. But frankly, at this point, I'm not holding out any hope since I don't think you're even aware of that.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by usafphoenix » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:17 pm

While I get the argument that "[by going into the research window after a technology has been completed, you can review what has been unlocked]" that is a minor point. generally, technology (for my case at least) has been chosen specifically because of what it unlocks, so i do not need to "review" the technology once it completes. I know what i was waiting for. In many cases, a single technology can have multiple effects. We already print to the screen when a technology is completed. It's actually a minor issue to print: "recipes unlocked: {print list}".

the bonus to the feature not being added at this time: there are already mods that are far superior to the feature being described. Although the ability to search for science/hide science requiring a specific pack may prove "cheaty", added to the ability the mod so-named "Research Queue" has of being able to automatically queue up pre-requisite technologies. Having to manually chose technologies to queue and being limited to 5 is therefore, in some ways more reasonable (although at the cost of extra work for the players who've memorized the tech tree and dream about it in their sleep lol)

I support the decision to hold the idea for now, but hope it'll be looked at again at a later date. Also, the idea could be implemented in such a way to be more similar to the mod that already exists, but is a feature that must be turned on in the options menu: as a research queue of any sort could cause the issue of "what did that unlock again?" ----but the answer to this is fairly simple: press 'T', and review the science already completed.

Also: another idea would be to unlock the ability to use the research queue once certain achievements were unlocked: (beat the game is the bare minimum), but perhaps locking the queue from being used until "beat the game within 24 hours" as well. or other such things. By locking the ability to use the research queue behind achievements, you mitigate the probability of a player not knowing what a research unlocked (they'd have to have played the game fairly fully by that point and have a fluent knowledge of the game's workings) and you set it up in such a way that it makes the game less tedious for veterans while presenting itself as a trophy/loot with meaning to players who are new to factorio. "You've beaten the game, your now have special features." Lots of games have mechanics like this: levels or difficulties locked behind achievements or easter eggs. The biggest issue i see with a research queue is also solved by locking it behind some of the achievements that, once gained should represent a knowledge of the game that removes the biggest issues with the Research Queue being available.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mrvn » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:26 am

usafphoenix wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:17 pm
While I get the argument that "[by going into the research window after a technology has been completed, you can review what has been unlocked]" that is a minor point.
It's an invalid point as the research window can open after every technology has been completed with or without research queue. There already is an option for the window to open or not. Change that to 3 options: always, when queue is empty or never. Done.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by usafphoenix » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:18 am

i disagree. for NEW players, having the tech window pop up after a completed technology *is* useful for some people. for *some* people. But for the majority of players, i do believe, most of us disable this quite early as it gets a bit annoying.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mrvn » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:09 am

usafphoenix wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:18 am
i disagree. for NEW players, having the tech window pop up after a completed technology *is* useful for some people. for *some* people. But for the majority of players, i do believe, most of us disable this quite early as it gets a bit annoying.
You don't disagree, you are missing the point. Because the window WOULD open for new players or those that want it. Always opening would be the default for obvious reasons. Only experienced players would change the option to have the window not constantly open and bother them.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by HalfPastZulu » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:08 pm

Merssedes wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:52 am
For all who ask to make queue as option: how do you see managing researches in multiplayer for people with different settings?
PS. Personally, i'd like to have queue too.
I know this is a late reply but oh well...

Every good multiplayer game has a team leader or game leader usually the one who created the game instance... That one person should be the only person able to research anything and they should be able to pass that ability on to another.

So keeping personal preferences on whether to queue or not still works.

having 10-20 people all be able to access the research at the same time isn't very smart anyway.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Zavian » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:53 am

HalfPastZulu wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:08 pm
Merssedes wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:52 am
For all who ask to make queue as option: how do you see managing researches in multiplayer for people with different settings?
PS. Personally, i'd like to have queue too.
I know this is a late reply but oh well...

Every good multiplayer game has a team leader or game leader usually the one who created the game instance... That one person should be the only person able to research anything and they should be able to pass that ability on to another.

So keeping personal preferences on whether to queue or not still works.

having 10-20 people all be able to access the research at the same time isn't very smart anyway.
Any group of people playing co-op should be able to sort out who is allowed to pick/change research. Since that should be the normal case for friends or small groups playing together, there is no need for the game to default to only one person being able to choose research. (Co-operating that way is part of playing co-op. If only one person can choose research, what happens if that player goes afk or loses their internet connection, etc?) For larger groups where you might want to limit which players can choose research, you can already do that using the permission system.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by foodfactorio » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:06 am

hi, for new players (and players who are not as good as others, me included lol)
how about this...the player has an option to get a bit more "hand-holding"

for example:

a popup screen saying that research is available.
they select what to research
and when it is complete, a popup appears saying "you just unlocked, x, y and z" items. click here to see all the recipes etc"

and the click takes them to the main research tab with the technology they just unlocked being shown as usual, and they can mouse over the recipes etc.

so essentially, even if a few things are put in the queue, each unlock shows a popup with info about what they unlocked.

(of course, any popups would also need a little (tick) box for "do not show this to me again for 3 more games" or something similar... with an option to reset all research popups so that popups appear again in case a lot of time has gone by and players forgot what something does.)
(also me from the mod portal - im not dustine lol) = https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Dustine/ ... ssion/9108
my 1st Mod Idea :) viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50256

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by FasterJump » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am

So there will not be a research queue in 0.17.

But what about the research repeat function, is this removed too?
The infinite research does not seems concerned by all the Cons explained in the article. So if it's removed, do we know the reason?

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by 5thHorseman » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:49 am

Wait I thought they changed their mind? I'm not going to browse through all the past pages and also the past 20 FFFs but I'm sure they said somewhere that there would be a (sadly limited to like 3 or 5) research queue. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody said it here, though, so maybe it was a fevered dream.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am

FasterJump wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am
So there will not be a research queue in 0.17.

But what about the research repeat function, is this removed too?
The infinite research does not seems concerned by all the Cons explained in the article. So if it's removed, do we know the reason?
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:49 am
Wait I thought they changed their mind? I'm not going to browse through all the past pages and also the past 20 FFFs but I'm sure they said somewhere that there would be a (sadly limited to like 3 or 5) research queue. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody said it here, though, so maybe it was a fevered dream.
Yeah, it's added back as an option that's off by default.

Source: FFF 255
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by mrvn » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
FasterJump wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am
So there will not be a research queue in 0.17.

But what about the research repeat function, is this removed too?
The infinite research does not seems concerned by all the Cons explained in the article. So if it's removed, do we know the reason?
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:49 am
Wait I thought they changed their mind? I'm not going to browse through all the past pages and also the past 20 FFFs but I'm sure they said somewhere that there would be a (sadly limited to like 3 or 5) research queue. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody said it here, though, so maybe it was a fevered dream.
Yeah, it's added back as an option that's off by default.

Source: FFF 255
It doesn't say anything about picking a research goal though, which can be combined with the queue.

Say you want to build a train. Trains need steel and engines and so on. So you can't just click at trains. Every time a research finishes you have to search for trains, select it, look what prerequisite tech you can research and select that for the next research. With a queue you could put all the prerequisites for something into the queue. Maybe even automatically by just adding trains.

But it would be better if one could add "trains" to the queue as a goal. And every time a research finishes it starts on the next prerequisite for trains. That way the queue wouldn't be bloated and there would be no confusion about why a, b, c, d, e, f are in the queue.

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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:42 pm

mrvn wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:34 am
FasterJump wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:43 am
So there will not be a research queue in 0.17.

But what about the research repeat function, is this removed too?
The infinite research does not seems concerned by all the Cons explained in the article. So if it's removed, do we know the reason?
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:49 am
Wait I thought they changed their mind? I'm not going to browse through all the past pages and also the past 20 FFFs but I'm sure they said somewhere that there would be a (sadly limited to like 3 or 5) research queue. But maybe I'm wrong.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody said it here, though, so maybe it was a fevered dream.
Yeah, it's added back as an option that's off by default.

Source: FFF 255
It doesn't say anything about picking a research goal though, which can be combined with the queue.

Say you want to build a train. Trains need steel and engines and so on. So you can't just click at trains. Every time a research finishes you have to search for trains, select it, look what prerequisite tech you can research and select that for the next research. With a queue you could put all the prerequisites for something into the queue. Maybe even automatically by just adding trains.

But it would be better if one could add "trains" to the queue as a goal. And every time a research finishes it starts on the next prerequisite for trains. That way the queue wouldn't be bloated and there would be no confusion about why a, b, c, d, e, f are in the queue.
Yeah, sadly they seem to have stopped at "Okay, I guess if it makes you happy we'll throw what we have right now at you."
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by 5thHorseman » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:58 am

mrvn wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm
But it would be better if one could add "trains" to the queue as a goal. And every time a research finishes it starts on the next prerequisite for trains. That way the queue wouldn't be bloated and there would be no confusion about why a, b, c, d, e, f are in the queue.
First off, and I can't stress this enough, I agree with you 100%.

Second, they decided not to do this because they want people to think about what they're getting on every step of the research tree. They didn't omit this feature due to not wanting to do the work, or not thinking of it. They actively chose it for gameplay reasons.

Thirdly, and I can't stress this enough, I agree with you 100%.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Koub » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:52 am

mrvn wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 pm
But it would be better if one could add "trains" to the queue as a goal. And every time a research finishes it starts on the next prerequisite for trains. That way the queue wouldn't be bloated and there would be no confusion about why a, b, c, d, e, f are in the queue.
Déjà vu :mrgreen:
Koub wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:24 pm
... on a second thought, a queue is not even needed. One could imagine a "research up to" feature that wouldn't queue all researches at once, but select one of the prerequisites whenever the previous one is compete, until the aimed research is done.
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by bobingabout » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:07 am

I like how in Oxygen Not Included you can just click on advanced rocket science... and an hour later it's researched. of course if that's what you went for from the beginning, you might have some living condition issues, since you skip so much from other branches, I chose that as an example because it has the most prerequisites.

Now, I'm not going to get into details, but there are differing opinions of what a research queue should look like in the dev team. Some are of the opinion there shouldn't be one. Others agree with the ONI system where you just pick a science and every prerequisite gets added to the list in order.

What we're actually getting is a compromise, somewhere in the middle. You pick the current researching technology as normal, and then the things that it unlocks appear in the list coloured yellow, so you can choose up to 7 more, for a total queue of 8. This is what was advertised back in a previous FFF and that's the current implementation of it in 0.17 master branch.

There is more I can tell you, but...
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by 5thHorseman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:19 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:07 am
What we're actually getting is a compromise, somewhere in the middle. You pick the current researching technology as normal, and then the things that it unlocks appear in the list coloured yellow, so you can choose up to 7 more, for a total queue of 8. This is what was advertised back in a previous FFF and that's the current implementation of it in 0.17 master branch.
Just to clarify, you can still choose, as your 2nd queued research, something from the "green" nodes that aren't down the tree from the first one? Like early on I can queue up automation, turrets, and lights?
bobingabout wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:07 am
There is more I can tell you, but...
...then it wouldn't be a teaser. :D
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Re: Friday Facts #254 - No research queue for you

Post by Jap2.0 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:20 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:07 am
There is more I can tell you, but...
:cry:
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