Friday Facts #275 - 0.17 Science changes

[Mike5000]

About PSP in early game, i think primary problem still remains - solar panels give too little power either way.

The trick to using PSPs is batteries. My initial modular armor usually gets 9 PSPs and 4 batteries. It's enough to power a personal roboport for modest jobs when I'm out of roboport range provided I don't use it when a full roboport is available.

It's great when you finally get to a Power Armor Mk4 with four fusion generators but the progression through PSPs is I think worthwhile.

[featherwinglove]

The primary intention behind design of production science recipe has always been to create a challenge that feels somewhat different and fresh compared to previous 5 science pack recipes. That is why the recipe requires large volume of an item. Previously the item was copper wire, but feedback we got was that copper wires are used in large volumes in circuit manufacturing already, so using them in the science pack recipe makes the recipe feel rather dull. That is why we replaced them with rails.

I don't think the solution is to augment one line of dull that generally makes sense, e.g. I've burned up plenty of copper wire myself in science experiments by shorting batteries - fortunately with enough care that I haven't also burned my fingers, with another line of dull that burns up three kilometres of train track? I think there's a TV there that is stuck looping only that one scene from October Sky and it's starting to turn your brains to mush

[MicFac]

I like most of the changes and I think it would be good to put pipes in the recipe for logistic science as They are the third early-game logistic "device" that is simple to craft and doesn't require many resources. This way the player is required to automate all fundamental logistic "devices" very early game.

[Mike5000]

...
This way the player is required to automate all fundamental logistic "devices" very early game.

In a game about discovering, learning, inventing, solving puzzles, and playing freely all this new hand-holding is the opposite of a good thing.

[featherwinglove]

And I'm really, really tired of bad magician-style dodges where you hand wave what I said to try to imply that I might have denied the link between the player's logistic network and their ability to mass produce things so we can have merry little chase down that rabbit hole of stupidity.

Or to put it at your level - you are arguing against things I haven't said because you can't argue against what I did, and you are continuing on with Wube's tradition of saying that a theme is this mystical, emotional thing that's purely subjective and can't be argued about and so I somehow haven't made a real point.

I finally remembered the phrase PhDs use to summarize this type of failure in debates: Straw Man Fallacy.

[featherwinglove]

...
This way the player is required to automate all fundamental logistic "devices" very early game.

In a game about discovering, learning, inventing, solving puzzles, and playing freely all this new hand-holding is the opposite of a good thing.

It's not really "hand holding" in any traditional sense: the idea is to create this kind of pleasant surprise that you've already automated for your science something that you needed to automate anyway.

This doesn't work for the production science pack rails because: First, they chew up so many rail items that I need to separate my science production from my expansion production (the numbers problem.) Second, three kilometres of train track burning up in each of hundreds of "production" science experiments, wut? (the theme problem.) Finally, massive piles of primitive, common materials being burned up in a mid-tier science pack (the primary material problem, although it seems quite a few people appreciate having something to dump stone into. ...somebody said that it's strange to them because no waste comes out the other side: tonnes of material just goes into the lab and vanishes into thin air.)

[featherwinglove]

The naming convention for the new science packs is almost serviceable but not there yet. 'Utility' is just bad. 'Automation' could be better; you're trying too hard on the suggestion with that. 'Manufacturing' is better in that it's clearer and people generally have a better idea of what that means as opposed to tossing 'Automation' at them, particularly when the automation process involves a lot of logistics items.

Kinetic would be better than Physical. Right crowd for it too.

I agree with these names, and "Utility" is just bad - so bad that Lockheed Skunkworks' first absolutely wicked spy plane used it as a designation.

[featherwinglove]

Dear developers. Everyone knows that science requires coffee. Maybe the science labs should need some coffee either piped in, or provided as an item in early game? No scientific progress has been made without coffee since the fire, because noone likes cold coffee, i'm quite certain....

Agreed. Somebody update it please.

[sparr]

This update suggests that the devs think a lot of players are using automated science production as a source of materials for further expansion, and expansion of their main factory to fuel science production. My play style definitely doesn't include this, nor does that of most of the people I've watched. When I build my first refinery, I am hand crafting all the pipes, and just working on something else while that process finishes. Automating red ammo for defense vs for science are two completely different concerns for me, one often coming long before or after the other depending on the game settings I'm playing. Using solid fuel from my main refineries to produce science is... not going to happen.

Am I wrong here? Are many people driving science production from intermediate products produced in your main factory?

[Serenity]

I pull some low volume things from the science lines. But only grenades, gun turrets, engines and electrical engines. Military science is fine for that as it doesn't run all the time.
However the 3 piercing ammo assemblers there aren't enough to cover general ammo needs, so there is an extra ammunition line. I also like to have two assemblers for making walls. With the new recipe one assembler for walls is all you need for science at that point.

When I automate things the very first time I actually take gears, belts and inserters from a line that also feeds some red/green science assemblers. But that part of the factory is torn up soon after. It's just meant to make building the main bus and the proper factory easier.

Gun turrets will no longer be in military science. So I'll have to produce them separately. Electrical engines will be moved from purple to yellow science. So they'll come from the robot line instead.
I could see pulling off some solid fuel for personal use. 24 AM2 doing blue science only need 1.8 refineries. So there is some extra even if science runs all the time. Which at the beginning isn't really the case for me. This change may get some people to use solid fuel in their cars and tanks earlier than before

I guess this is aimed a bit at beginners. To learn how to automate certain products and then maybe duplicate that part elsewhere.
Producing something like pipes centrally and bussing it around is something a beginner might do as well in a spaghetti factory. Though for gears that can actually be useful

[Mike5000]

I guess this is aimed a bit at beginners. To learn how to automate certain products and then maybe duplicate that part elsewhere.

That's why these overly heavy handed hints belong in tutorials or maybe campaigns, not in free play in an open world.

[featherwinglove]

However the 3 piercing ammo assemblers there aren't enough to cover general ammo needs, so there is an extra ammunition line.

It usually does for me, but I know I'd have an equivalent problem with the rails in the production pack. I think needing to separate science pack crafting ingredients in relatively small games kinda defeats what the developers have in mind by including them in the science packs. This combined with the theme-breaking of the production pack really seals it for me: the rails must go, guys. As for the piercing ammunition, it really makes a lot of sense because you'd be using it for testing armor and walls, stuff like that, and possibly simulating orbital debris, which makes sense for the rocket development. So I'm okay with it, even if the pack uses too much.

I guess this is aimed a bit at beginners. To learn how to automate certain products and then maybe duplicate that part elsewhere.

That's why these overly heavy handed hints belong in tutorials or maybe campaigns, not in free play in an open world.

I completely agree. Most people who play the Factorio free game are doing so because they don't want such things, am I right? Or would it be best to put a toggle in the difficulty settings? I know I turn off "Tips and Tricks" the moment I start a fresh installation (I'm a bit paranoid about upgrading a x.X.x installation directly, it would probably take me longer to repair the thing than create a new mod pack from scratch.) I like the way the tooltips work currently, but they often malfunction in raw materials estimates, at least in my experience.

There are multiple science overhaul mods which scratch the itch of using normally long-lasting infrastructure items in a science pack, but my favorite, Science Cost Tweaker has some incredibly dorky monikers to convey "single use" in the names of them.

[morsk]

Am I wrong here? Are many people driving science production from intermediate products produced in your main factory?

I do it with engines, and I think everyone does it with red circuits. I make them because blue science will need them, but I also intend to have extras.

Some things (bullets, turrets, electric furnace) I pull off science belts into provider chests.

I wouldn't do it with the green science things (belt, inserter, pipe). They have upgrades, and I think they belong in a mall next to their upgrades. Maybe some speedrun build could get double-use out of the machines though.

[bobucles]

The trick to using PSPs is batteries.

That's the other issue. Early modular suits suffer because they don't work at night. This isn't a big deal for most items, except it renders the night vision goggles completely inoperable as a stand alone research. In Factorio items are generally just supposed to work yet NV goggles are one of the few things that doesn't. Even the personal roboport has enough internal energy to work some tasks without suit batteries and that's in blue research. Give it enough internal energy to survive one night and then players can have an item that just works.

I have other reasons for disliking the NV item and think that they belong in the post game. The day/night cycle of lighting is much cooler and players only need a personal lantern upgrade to be comfortable at night.

[Serenity]

The day/night cycle of lighting is much cooler and players only need a personal lantern upgrade to be comfortable at night.

The NV goggles are great for fighting, but I don't like how it stops you from putting lights everywhere in your base

[Lizzy]

Am I wrong here? Are many people driving science production from intermediate products produced in your main factory?

On my first factory? You bet. I still open that save sometimes just to spend an hour or two there, taking in its chaos.

On factories I built after my 100-ish hour? Of course not.

[Lizzy]

The NV goggles are great for fighting, but I don't like how it stops you from putting lights everywhere in your base

Yeah, I agree.

When the NV was that ugly green I'd put lights anyway and I liked how that created a very stark distinction between "in base/outpost" and "off in the wild". But now that it's a less hideous saturation filter, I just forget to add the lights, and that's a bit sad.

[featherwinglove]

The trick to using PSPs is batteries.

That's the other issue. Early modular suits suffer because they don't work at night. This isn't a big deal for most items, except it renders the night vision goggles completely inoperable as a stand alone research. ... Give it enough internal energy to survive one night and then players can have an item that just works.

I really agree with this. NVG going dead in the middle of the night in a solar powered suit is really annoying! Especially when I have other equipment that has enough energy to run them the rest of the night if only I could plug them together.

The day/night cycle of lighting is much cooler and players only need a personal lantern upgrade to be comfortable at night.

The NV goggles are great for fighting, but I don't like how it stops you from putting lights everywhere in your base

They don't for me because they are so huge that I usually take them out when I don't need them.

[T-A-R]

The sat is, as it is the most complex recipe, the end boss of factorio. By the time you need you have all the technology to produce/deliver it the way you like most. Putting it behing winning a game by launching a empty rocket feels silly and not as a improvement ihmo.

The hard ratios do not invite at all to try balancing your factory. Without a spreadsheets it is impossible to avoid stalling products.

I gonna miss the deviation of different types of assemblers. I always liked choosing "the right" machine for the specific job, it was another layer in improving production by upgrading them.

I just do not understand how the game is getting better by these choices.

[Rythe]

I have tried to explain both in the article and here earlier that the “are rails advanced enough” is not just whether the recipe and item unlock consist of early parts (technically it is green tier without oil which is early). It’s also important when do you actually want to use the item - you can start setting up rails early, but there is never too late for that, and at any point adding in the game the rail network is almost certainly allow your factory to scale like crazy (and scale = production). That’s why I think the rail is a fitting ingredient into a science pack all about production.

Reading this is making my head hurt, Firefox hasn't underlined anything so it isn't the spelling... The logic really is just that non-sensical, and that's from a guy who can tank a water dragon big enough to ride fitting into a red-and-white tennis ball TARDIS without it being uncomfortable in there. Burning three kilometres of train track in a science experiment is just that strange!

Nah, fish would be a great addition to the Production science pack recipe. If only we could mass produce them.