My travel to the east

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ssilk
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My travel to the east

Post by ssilk » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:31 am

(I came from that thread: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... hp?f=9&t=9 )

PS: cause I writing from iPad no pics yet, I promise some pics, as soon, as I'm home again!


I mentioned it earlier, that I currently try to go east. I came now to a point of about 2000 tiles. That's 10 radars, it takes about 2-3 minutes by train.
Immibis asked me:
Btw, why do you actually need this? You seem to want to be able to request anything over a distance of 2000 tiles, is that correct? That's a big project, and the game shouldn't have features to make everything easy.
This is an experiment. How far can I come? Currently I only survive out there, because the biters stop moving, when I shot them (I think this is a kind of bug). And because I can run through their villages with my fully upgraded combat bots like butter. :)

The questions for me are:
1. what is the distance, when a logistic network begins to make no sense anymore?
2. is it possible to bring the needed items so far by train? What is needed for that?
3. how far can I come? And what happens?
4. does the distances feel "natural"?
5. and most important: is it fun to play with such distances?

My answers:

1: well, this distance is not defined, because it can work over very long distances... Or not. :)
The logistic network over such distances is not reliable, because you need so many bots. The need for bots grows about linearly with the distance, but you need many, many bots to have a more or less continuos stream. The bots tend to built a "critical mass", especially at the beginning/end of a route.

What odds me a bit: it is still possible. I've built a line of roboports to test that. In my eyes I think it shouldn't be possible, not because it shouldn't be possible to transport things over that distances by robots, but because you cannot control it anymore. I had a more or less working factory with about 500 bots, and because nothing was to do, only 10-20 are needed. Then I built this long line of roboports and requested something. The result was: it needed all bots to fulfill the request. This was due the long distance, they need about 5 mins to fly there and another 5 to fly back. Ok, I could built much more bots, but the experience showed, that this leads to massive loss of bots because of charging.

Another issue, which speaks against such long distances by bots is with the construction bots. It needs too long, the ghost building disappears after 15 minutes. If I have too less bots, they need to return and get the rest, but then the building disappeared. I stopped the experiments there. What I haven't tried was a combination of logistic networks. Network A delivers to B, then C, then D. Or if a massive increase of bots couldn't be handled by massive increase of ports.

Well, taking the current experiences into account, I think the maximum size of logistic network should be about 300-1200 tiles in diameter. This depends from the current speed of the bots, without upgrade I think 300 is very ok, fully upgraded 1200, eventually 1500. And to be on the sure side I would divide all by 1.5.

2: yes. Possible with some effort. and that I don't know how much is In the wagon. I set very short loading times to avoid overloading with one item - for example piercing bullets. It happened that it loaded a wagon full of them, but needed only 10 or so. What's needed I'm trying to figure out in the above mentioned thread.

3: some death are waiting. :) well. I don't see an end. Perhaps I can try to come much more far. There should be some change. Something, which can be really dangerous. Some ancient biter city. Something else then forest, lake and biters. :) fantasy sets no limits.

But my current wish is to create massive mining and oil production. Massive = 200-300 mines. Because I want to know where are the limits of my factory and where are the limits of transportation over such long distances with so much items. :) and because the usage of combat bots is SO expensive...

4: in the original article, I mention it: it feels too tight. To many changes in landscape. Too many native villages, resources, the forests are too often, too many lakes. I wish to have vast areas of one type of landscape. Dessert for example, or thight forest. No resources, no villages, nothing. And then the landscape changes rapidly, many different types, biters everywhere, water, staggered forests, resources.

5. Is it fun? Well, difficult. I'm not the typical gamer, I have extreme duration in doing stupid stuff. So I would say, currently not any longer. It takes all too long! 3 minutes by train! The first 5-10 times this ride is a kind of fun, but it looses interest.

But when those gaps would be closed, I think - I'm nearly sure - it could be fun and would open factorio for many more ideas.

There are many:
A) when I take the idea of #4 into account, then the landscape looks like there are vast areas without anything (well, not really, even in deserts are many things, but not as much as needed or that it is worth the afford), and then there are areas where everything happens: resources, natives, etc. The starting area is such an area! We are surrounded by natives. But going 300-500 tiles, there is nothing. 1000-2000 tiles of nothing. And then "isles" of areas like the starting area... I think this should look very natural.

B) We need some kind of automatic exploration, long range radar or exploration bots. We will find hidden resources, old factory parts, secrets. We enhance the car to much more speed. ;) faster trains. Helicopter. Planes...

C) The resources in the starting area are good enough to get power armor, but then we need to expand massively over this large area. Is that really fun? Well, I think so, because it is the question if you have enough resources left to handle this jump.

D) the most difficult problem is then the logistics. It's impossible to drive see-saw yet, and it gets really boring, if there weren't the fights with the natives. We need stuff and we need to send resources back. Massive automatism needed. I think at this point the ability for good mode, or to change into another entity (airplanes, track builder) is an option. Automatic building of tracks, mining sites, airports...

I think this type of game is then really new: vast landscapes, realistic distances...
But is that fun? I really don't know, but I can imagine it.

Repeat: I'll try to send pics as soon as possible.
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Re: My travel to the east

Post by AlexPhoenix » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:42 am

Well, taking the current experiences into account, I think the maximum size of logistic network should be about 300-1200 tiles in diameter. This depends from the current speed of the bots, without upgrade I think 300 is very ok, fully upgraded 1200, eventually 1500. And to be on the sure side I would divide all by 1.5.
i think dont need to limit, you must think with your own head about what you are doung.
Game must allow player to do errors.

But my current wish is to create massive mining and oil production. Massive = 200-300 mines. Because I want to know where are the limits of my factory and where are the limits of transportation over such long distances with so much items. :) and because the usage of combat bots is SO expensive...
actualy limit is only your PC power.

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Re: My travel to the east

Post by ray4ever » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:07 am

Very nice post sslik!

I completely agree with you that long distance mining/assembling needs to be supported more. I guess the "easiest" solution would be to incorporate the trains into the logistic system. So each station would be able to act as a supplier and requester chest at the same time while the trains would be the "logistic bots" delivering the items between them. When the train station is linked to the on site logistic network you would be able to steer your goods flow as you wish while making sure that every base is getting exactly the items you want the base to get (and not be overfilled with some item).

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Re: My travel to the east

Post by ssilk » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:09 am

AlexPhoenix wrote:i think dont need to limit, you must think with your own head about what you are doung.
Game must allow player to do errors.
well, you're so right. I tend to limit all, so that others don't make the same errors. And when I think about it, then a robot network can make sense, if you can have many overlapping networks and some kind of exchange-points.
But my current wish is to create massive mining and oil production. Massive = 200-300 mines. Because I want to know where are the limits of my factory and where are the limits of transportation over such long distances with so much items. :) and because the usage of combat bots is SO expensive...
actualy limit is only your PC power.[/quote]
Not sure with it. But what I meant was, when is my main train station exploding, how many trains do I need, how is it with the oil in barrels, can I mix the items, what the best length of trains for that massive transport, handling of stations with the same name, is it better to transport from station to station or do all in one... Such things.
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Re: My travel to the east

Post by Zourin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:22 am

There's just one thing that always bugs me.. and I know I've reiterated it a few times at this point.

The game begs for expanse and expansion, especially when you start dealing with trains, but everything's really dense. Whether it's the trees, the biter nests, or running into an ocean (which keeps happening to me in my starting zone). In a game that is theoretically massive, the poor combat balance combined with biter mutators, just doesn't want you to explore the world that's generated. It's like if Minecraft increased the light threshhold for when mobs could spawn as you got farther from the player spawn point, and also as ingame time passed, and without spawn caps.

And while the simpler answer would be to turn down the biter frequency, all that seems to do is make them practically nonexistant, even by a single notch.

The new tree spawn rates make cars almost unusable, and you pretty much have to blast your way through forests in order to lay track,

I want to be able to spread out, organize my logistics, specialize production centers without being crammed around 0,0

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Re: My travel to the east

Post by ssilk » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:02 pm

Zourin wrote:The game begs for expanse and expansion, especially when you start dealing with trains, but everything's really dense. Whether it's the trees, the biter nests, or running into an ocean (which keeps happening to me in my starting zone). In a game that is theoretically massive, the poor combat balance combined with biter mutators, just doesn't want you to explore the world that's generated. It's like if Minecraft increased the light threshhold for when mobs could spawn as you got farther from the player spawn point, and also as ingame time passed, and without spawn caps.
Yea, somehow same opinion. You cannot come out of your small territory, until you have good enough weapons/shields. And then there is no free way.

I've no problem with it, if it allows that later. And I must protect the devs here: Currently the choosen solution is correct! It takes currently just too long, to make this kind of game! And as long as that is not possible, I think it's more important to have a playable game.
And while the simpler answer would be to turn down the biter frequency, all that seems to do is make them practically nonexistant, even by a single notch.
Hm, if they would sit on the needed resources ... ?
The new tree spawn rates make cars almost unusable, and you pretty much have to blast your way through forests in order to lay track,
I want to be able to spread out, organize my logistics, specialize production centers without being crammed around 0,0
Yeah, but that was one thing, which odds me on Railroad Tycoon or OpenTTD: Once you get upon a certain level the game was too easy.

But again: Let the game stabilize, lets think what's needed to do that. Improve slow. They need information about how this could work, because nobody ever has created such a game!
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Re: My travel to the east

Post by ssilk » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:11 pm

Overview:
Clipboard01.jpg
Clipboard01.jpg (198.81 KiB) Viewed 15409 times
Left is the base (0,0), right is Position 3489,-830. With a train without wagons I need about 1 minute.

(I always wondered, but now I know, that trains with wagons are some slower)


Here is the base overview. Around the center is 0,0. Top is my storage. Middle is the my factory and smelting. Down is my train station.
Clipboard07.jpg
Clipboard07.jpg (42.5 KiB) Viewed 15409 times
This is the train station for the support of my outer base. You see the many chests. Every chest is for one item. The green wire goes to the eastern head. For speed I use this small train, without wagons on the left.
Clipboard02.jpg
Clipboard02.jpg (303.91 KiB) Viewed 15409 times
Thats it for today. Tomorrow the rest... ;)
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Re: My travel to the east

Post by Deathmage » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:18 pm

If you set terrain segmentation to, low or very low. There will be larger forests and deserts uninterrupted. However some generated structures of harder biter levels, with lowered biter base spawn rates. This would make finding normal bases less often and the occasional 'exiting' base would make it nicer to travel long distances, larger resource sinks in the later game encoring this.Just my idea thoe feel free to add your opinion.

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Re: My travel to the east

Post by TheSAguy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:38 pm

That's a long rail.
Could you possibly post a save?

Thanks.

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Re: My travel to the east

Post by ssilk » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:16 pm

@TheSAguy: tomorrow. I hope. :)

@Deathmage: I think I played with original settings. Started with V0.8... I tried many other things on that map.
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Re: My travel to the east

Post by ssilk » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:32 pm

I forgot that completely. Sorry.

Meanwhile I expanded about 5000 tiles to the east. I built up a second far base at about 4200 tiles, which is supplied by the first one. (only in the last save).

Now here are the promised links:

#1 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxC7zF ... sp=sharing
#2 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxC7zF ... sp=sharing
#3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxC7zF ... sp=sharing

The first one is the moment, when I had built up mining sites which fill 3 fast belts nearly fully. It is fun to restart from here and see, how all the items are transported to the 3000 tiles away base-factory.

The second is from the bug I reported by shortly. Just delete the wagon and play.

The third is from the other reported bug. You need to remove the beacons (in the center of the three ghost-furnace-complex) before they are placed by the cbots, OTHERWISE THE GAME CRASHES!
I wanted to rebuilt the furnace section from above into a very big furnace, which is filled from the storage at the right by the needs from the factory. So the furnaces makes all three types of ressources (iron plates, copper plates, steel), just dependent by the mixture you fill it into the furnace complex. All stuff coming out is put into a storage... The sorting of the stuff is then done by the logistic bots. This sounds more complex as it is, but look at the "storage" over the factory! I wondered if this is possible and I'm very keen on playing further from here, but have no time yet.

Some recommended places:
- Of course the factory. There is nothing very special here, and I had problems how I used the provider chests (by stack limitation instead of green inserter). But now this is fixed.
- The most interesting part is the area around 24,-11 and 43,10. This pulls the surplus into the storage and the follwing splitter joins from the same storage. It's a mess, but working. Never change a running system.
- I think I've solve the most problems with the empty barrels. I've currently two systems running: One which consists of two wagons. This are the trains which run to the station "The cyborg". First transport empty barrels, second the full barrels. New barrels are produced, if too less empty barrels.
The second type is, that there is nothing special. At Moodrix-station I fill the supply-trains with the needed stuff for the far away Lorenzo-Reijndorp-station and so on. So I fill also the empty barrels here. From the far away station(s) I use always trains with 4 wagons and just fill anything in, which I need. No sorting. I just put anything into the wagons. Look at the requester chests at the outer stations.
- The sorting is made in the FreeER-station. This is also a place you need to look at! It is fascinating, when a bulk of train arrives.
- From here is goes up to the furnaces (only in first and second save) and (I begin to repeat) the surplus is put into the "storage" over the factory center.
- Visit the Lorenzo-Reijdorp-station: There are 300 very busy logistic bots. Fascinating.
- From Tomik station you can drive to the very end in the east and fight. Use destroyer, defender and distractor capsules, and you can walk through like warm butter.

I think in 1-2 weeks I've time for a longer article about the consequences I take from this map. For example I think there is an optimal distance between the stations, which is about 1000-2000 tiles. The current distance to the first far outpost is too big in my eyes.

Have fun and tell me what you think.
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Re: My travel to the east

Post by MaexxDesign » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:01 pm

I spent many hours to going south by train and I reached this position:
2.314, 230.096

Image

I tried to find out the maximum:
1.000.000 in each direction

Image
Last edited by MaexxDesign on Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My travel to the east

Post by nosports » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:08 pm

where are the elephants and the turtle ?

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