Better Demo

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Commander Snake9
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Better Demo

Post by Commander Snake9 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:20 pm

Devs I Suggest if you want people to actually give the game a chance you should give them a good demo to try out so they know what there getting into since the demo you are using feels only like 1% of the game so they don't get to experience the actual game.

When I played the demo it feels like a closed off path that you only have one objective that you have to do unlike the sandbox mode where you pick what science you unlock and it try out.

So I recommend that you should do something like minecraft where you can actually experience the full game but only for a hour so they get to know what the actually the game is all about and after that hour they can decide if they should buy the game a and continue or not get it.

And I come to send this message out to the devs and everyone to see this post for the hope that the devs let people try the legit game out and so my brother can try it out to for the hope that I might have some one to play with since i'm usually quite lonely because i have no friends that play the game

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Re: Better Demo

Post by featherwinglove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:06 am

I'm happy with the demo except that it absolutely needs to have a mission where conventional research is enabled. I would recommend something that implements a free-game like scenario with only the first two science kits enabled. The fourth campaign mission might be sufficient.

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Re: Better Demo

Post by Oktokolo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:07 am

Commander Snake9 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:20 pm
Devs I Suggest if you want people to actually give the game a chance you should give them a good demo to try out so they know what there getting into since the demo you are using feels only like 1% of the game so they don't get to experience the actual game.
They already work on a new "new player experience". I therefore expect the demo to change significantly in 0.17 or 0.18.

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Re: Better Demo

Post by featherwinglove » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:04 pm

Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:07 am
Commander Snake9 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:20 pm
Devs I Suggest if you want people to actually give the game a chance you should give them a good demo to try out so they know what there getting into since the demo you are using feels only like 1% of the game so they don't get to experience the actual game.
They already work on a new "new player experience". I therefore expect the demo to change significantly in 0.17 or 0.18.
I'm very curious how they're going to rewrite First Steps-01 without the axe in such a way that it doesn't leave prospective players scratching their heads. Is that "new player experience" a direct quote from somewhere? That (even post-FFF#266) doesn't sound like the sort of language our devs would use, and considering that so many devs from AAA to low-effort walking simulator indies have given Jim Sterling cause to pronounce the phrase in the way that he has (I can't find a sample with a relatively simple search), this would be quite concerning.

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Re: Better Demo

Post by Jap2.0 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:33 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:04 pm
Oktokolo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:07 am
Commander Snake9 wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:20 pm
Devs I Suggest if you want people to actually give the game a chance you should give them a good demo to try out so they know what there getting into since the demo you are using feels only like 1% of the game so they don't get to experience the actual game.
They already work on a new "new player experience". I therefore expect the demo to change significantly in 0.17 or 0.18.
I'm very curious how they're going to rewrite First Steps-01 without the axe in such a way that it doesn't leave prospective players scratching their heads. Is that "new player experience" a direct quote from somewhere? That (even post-FFF#266) doesn't sound like the sort of language our devs would use, and considering that so many devs from AAA to low-effort walking simulator indies have given Jim Sterling cause to pronounce the phrase in the way that he has (I can't find a sample with a relatively simple search), this would be quite concerning.
Yes (1 2)
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Re: Better Demo

Post by featherwinglove » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:18 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:33 pm
Yes (1 2)
It's a relief that they're using the phrase as little more than a rather dumb title. It also illustrates how some people (e.g. me) take massive breaks from the forum and FFF reading can miss really important things.
FFF#241 wrote:We find that the Freeplay portion of the game is already enjoyable to its target audience, but those who prefer a more guided experience-
aren't in the target audience. Posila blew a gasket to that effect under FFF#266. Factorio is an engine to create a story, not tell one, and pretty much every story I've seen it create has been told out of character. (an exception)

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Re: Better Demo

Post by Oktokolo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:59 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:18 pm
FFF#241 wrote:We find that the Freeplay portion of the game is already enjoyable to its target audience, but those who prefer a more guided experience-
aren't in the target audience.
Looks like they want to expand the target audience to include people who need the game to provide clear goals and a less steep learning curve. Redoing the campaign (and making the game more accessible in general) is the right method to achieve that.

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Re: Better Demo

Post by featherwinglove » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 am

Oktokolo wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:59 pm
Looks like they want to expand the target audience to include people who need the game to provide clear goals and a less steep learning curve. Redoing the campaign (and making the game more accessible in general) is the right method to achieve that.
It's a comment that doesn't contribute much: you're being so generic here that it's almost off-topic and/or could be put in just about any thread and illicit nought but a shrug, if even that.

My concerns are much more specific: how they're redoing the campaign and how they're making the game more accessible. First, I'm pretty sure that the target audience being described here will either not even be looking at Factorio, or will find it immensely frustrating because of how far it departs from the RTS model they're probably expecting. For a guy like me, who has been playing base-building and 4X for decades, the goals are clear and the learning curve quite manageable, all I need to do is open the research page - of whatever game I'm playing. The other concern is that the efforts to capture a wider audience could alienate the core fans, in which case it will do more harm than good; I can cite a long list of examples from only the last two years, and the one which screwed up the least is Pokemon Let's Go, whose significant problems are forcing the use of motion control and pricing too high.

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Re: Better Demo

Post by Oktokolo » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:10 pm

featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 am
It's a comment that doesn't contribute much:
You stated, that a group of players is not in the target audience. I then stated the obvious: That they are trying to include that groupp.
As neither you nor i am part of Wube, we are both only speculating and stating opinions.
featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 am
First, I'm pretty sure that the target audience being described here will either not even be looking at Factorio, or will find it immensely frustrating because of how far it departs from the RTS model they're probably expecting.
People, who are new to RTS games, will not expect Factorio to be like an RTS game. Factorio is also marketed beeing about building a huge Factory, wich differs fundamentally from the marketing of typical RTS games.
featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 am
The other concern is that the efforts to capture a wider audience could alienate the core fans, in which case it will do more harm than good;
The concerns seems to be that their game might become an economic desaster or lose its core audience. I got the impression, that their game already is an economic sucess and that losing the core audience is pretty much impossible at this point as the majority of the core audience has already played the game for hundreds of hours and will always be able to revert to previous versions or mod the hell out of it.

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Re: Better Demo

Post by abregado » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm

The demo will change quite a lot before 1.0 and I'm excited to gather more opinions once it is available.

The main reason to change the demo is simply that players can try the game for as long as they want without paying for it and only buy in if they are convinced it is for them. We should help them decide this with content that is inline with what they get in the full version. This is currently not the case with the demo available for 0.16.

Currently the Steam refund system promotes players stopping before 3 hours is up so they can get a refund, which means they never really got a chance to enjoy the game.

The current development version of the demo has 3-5 hours of guided content for a new player (~1 - 1.5 hours for an intermediate player) and contains two science packs (red/green). Afterwards it opens up to a "mini-freeplay" that the player can play in for as long as they want. For a new player it is probably about 10 hours, by which time I would say anyone should be able to figure out if the game is worth the money we are asking.

Yes the content is designed for new players. The aim is to get more players who try the game to stick with it, which increases the size of the community and the host of benefits that come with a larger community (more mods, more players, more forum activity).

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Re: Better Demo

Post by featherwinglove » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:55 pm

abregado wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm
The demo will change quite a lot before 1.0 and I'm excited to gather more opinions once it is available.
I do have a question regarding the campaign that I hope you can answer: Does it drop the crashed starship premise of the current one? I think it needs to in order for the axe removal to make sense (and I'm still dead set against removing it to the extent that mods can't feature character tools: I won't recommend or gift another copy until it is restored.) I recommend something like Outpost 2: Divided Destiny, where SHTF some considerable period after the starship has arrived and colonies are established, or (read some, but not too much irony) the player has been sponsored or delivered by a corporate or government interest that has screwed him out of it. Injury comes to mind: the player is an engineering genius but can't use hand tools because some essential hardware in his shoulders has been destroyed in the crash. Maybe he has a nasty case of ALS, which then provides an excellent excuse to add TTS to the game so he can speak. (It was really trippy when I renewed a certain book written by Eric Lerner, and my library's Dynix phone TTS, which sounded almost exactly like Stephen Hawking at the time, read its title.)
The main reason to change the demo is simply that players can try the game for as long as they want without paying for it and only buy in if they are convinced it is for them.
I think this is worded a bit incautiously and could lead players to expect the demo to be so fully featured that a full purchase doesn't add much. I doubt that's the case: the demo will probably include only a tiny fraction of the full game, say, the first two science packs (yeah I'm repeating myself.)
We should help them decide this with content that is inline with what they get in the full version. This is currently not the case with the demo available for 0.16.
On this we are agreed. Joseph Anderson's SYB is probably more representative of the full game than the demo despite being horrendously out of date.
Currently the Steam refund system promotes players stopping before 3 hours is up so they can get a refund, which means they never really got a chance to enjoy the game.
The default is 2 hours, can/did you change that?
The current development version of the demo has 3-5 hours of guided content for a new player (~1 - 1.5 hours for an intermediate player) and contains two science packs (red/green). Afterwards it opens up to a "mini-freeplay" that the player can play in for as long as they want. For a new player it is probably about 10 hours, by which time I would say anyone should be able to figure out if the game is worth the money we are asking.
And probably, i'd say 20-30min for thue and AntiElite ;)
Yes the content is designed for new players. The aim is to get more players who try the game to stick with it, which increases the size of the community and the host of benefits that come with a larger community (more mods, more players, more forum activity).
I'd be alarmed if demo content were not. I still think the axe should be put back into 0.17 and following much as it has been in the game for the last six years. As for mining hardness, I'm trusting you guys are coming up with a better system (although the responses to concerns following FFF#266 has very badly shaken my confidence in your ability to do so - I mean one of you seriously proposed a direct circular prerequisite to solve the upgrade material access mechanic mods use axes and mining hardness to provide. My medical concerns following that are serious, and I think he needs some time off at the very least, some of which should include simply playing Factorio.) I'm more indifferent to AM ingredient counts, but I really liked the way that mechanic gated the second science pack, and the way, after I was a bit confused as to whether the second science pack was supposed to represent a progression gate, it was "Oh, it's the inserter!" FFF#266 was some pretty solid evidence that I had overestimated your cleverness.

Factorio's current economic model requires expanding the audience, so content, especially campaign/demo stuff, designed to ease in new players is certainly appropriate. But changes to the core game to support that, e.g. the FFF#266 stuff, should be made carefully so as not to upset the established audience. And Wube needs to listen to its core audience ...unless you've stashed away a couple hundred million euros for a AAA-style marketing campaign, I'm pretty sure you're relying on this core audience to alert new players to the game via streams and episodic LPs, just like Minecraft did. While its fulcrum was on the copyright side, the difference in attitude from the game publisher formed the entire difference in the success of Minecraft vs. Super Mario Maker. The latter has a tiny audience, but an 88% average rating. The former is- ...well, it's Minecraft; look it up if you have to :lol:

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Re: Better Demo

Post by abregado » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:21 am

DISCLAIMER: Im here to answer questions about the new Demo. Ive read and considered your off topic opinions (and read your post history) so for further discussion I recommend moving non-demo comments to the relevant Suggestion and Feedback boards so we can discuss them.
featherwinglove wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:55 pm
I do have a question regarding the campaign that I hope you can answer: Does it drop the crashed starship premise of the current one? I think it needs to in order for the axe removal to make sense
There is a crash and there is also no pickaxe. It also makes sense.
featherwinglove wrote: I doubt that's the case: the demo will probably include only a tiny fraction of the full game, say, the first two science packs (yeah I'm repeating myself.)
The Demo is not full featured, it is a limited set of content from the full game that should be enough for a new player to consume in ~5 hours without getting boring. The content chosen is less about showing a vertical slice and rather about demonstrating concepts that this genre does well.
featherwinglove wrote: The default is 2 hours, can/did you change that?
It is based on the legislation of the country where you bought the game. Regardless, it is never enough (except maybe in countries were a refund is always possible).

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Re: Better Demo

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:09 am

I mean, I probably got 15 hours or so out of the old demo...
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Re: Better Demo

Post by featherwinglove » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:35 am

I saw a thread of epic First Steps-03 builds somewhere, probably on the subreddit. None of them had radar :lol:

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Re: Better Demo

Post by Jap2.0 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:44 am

featherwinglove wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:35 am
I saw a thread of epic First Steps-03 builds somewhere, probably on the subreddit. None of them had radar :lol:
Iirc I had a dozen radars or so, I just cut power to them. You have to get creative when you don't have underground belts or long inserters. I think I still have the save - I might check Monday.
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Re: Better Demo

Post by Jap2.0 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:22 pm

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