Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

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ukezi
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

I would like a change: Make the catalysts from ore from the same tier. The second uses aluminium and silver. Aluminium can be created with chunks direct sorting, silver needs crystals. the red and blue one is fine, useing tier 1 and 3 ores respectability. The yellow one is wired with tungsten(tier 4) and nickel(tier 2) because there is only one tier 4 material. I would suggest using zinc instead of silver, as it is not used much.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

ukezi wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:28 pm
I would like a change: Make the catalysts from ore from the same tier. The second uses aluminium and silver. Aluminium can be created with chunks direct sorting, silver needs crystals. the red and blue one is fine, useing tier 1 and 3 ores respectability. The yellow one is wired with tungsten(tier 4) and nickel(tier 2) because there is only one tier 4 material. I would suggest using zinc instead of silver, as it is not used much.
Use the mixed sorting to start things off.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

I know how to work it. I was just noticing inconsistency.
@Angel could you make some intermediate Items for the buildings so that they become craftable in a MK2 assembler? Or at least reduce the crafting time from 5 to .5?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mrvn »

ukezi wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:59 am
I know how to work it. I was just noticing inconsistency.
@Angel could you make some intermediate Items for the buildings so that they become craftable in a MK2 assembler? Or at least reduce the crafting time from 5 to .5?
Craftable in a MK2 assembler might be interesting but as for time: How many ore sorters per second do you need? They should take long so you do build a factory for them and produce them ahead of time.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

Ore sorters work in a MK2. Casting and induction furnaces, even MK1 don't and I need way more of them. I would suggest a new Item, proposed name: Liquid Metal Unit. Made from five Brick and a BCB. You would need one of them for the caster and five for the furnace. That would work without any change to the recipes.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Airat9000 »

good afternoon! How can I disable only your resources in the game? I want gold and standard resources to be. and they are not present at generation, even if in adjustments to put what code to register that and that and that was.

добрый день! как мне отключить только ваши ресурсы в игре? хочу что бы золото и стандартные ресурсы были. а их нет при генерации, даже если в настройках поставить какой код прописать что бы и то и то было.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

I want to talk about the balancing of bio processing.
The side chains from the trees are way weak. You need 60 tree farms just to make 1 pastic/rubber/resin/s. That would also get you 10 wood/s.
With Wood 3 that 60 farms get you 52 Wood. That can be processed with the methanol synthesis to 48 plastic/s, even if you go directly from fiber to methanol you get ~21 plastic/s. You are better off to just make wood and process it with petrochem to make plastic or resin. For the additional complexity you should get more output.

The different types of gardens are also differently strong, with the swamp recipes being about twice as good as the desert one.
The temperate ones are somewhat in between and have often side products, but not enough to make it worth it, as you can produce them directly smaller and cheaper with the direct chains.
If I want to produce nutrient pulp the best is zombieecalyptus, for vegetable oil it's elendilomone also with a wide margin both from the swamp lines.
I would suggest to balance them in a way that they are about equivalent in power or to specialize to one for instance swamp has the strong pulp recipe, desert the strong oil one and temperate the byproducts while still decent. The dormant seed recipes still need to long to cycle up in my mind to use them in any significant amount. Also there is the soil vs mud vs sand consideration to be had but that is minor in comparison.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Harag »

This has been asked before: It seems the only reason the pressure tank mod has a hard dependency on petrochem is the technology prerequisite on angels-fluid-control. Maybe the dependency could be marked optional and the prerequiste be switched out conditionally? That way the mod could be used on its own.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by fenderzilla »

Would it possible to add a difficulty setting or something that makes it so catalysts don't get consumed? i.e., a recipe that uses a green metal catalyst would output a green metal catalyst instead of an empty catalyst frame. It doesn't make much sense that I constantly have to pour four different kinds of ore into a machine (iron, copper, silver, bauxite) just to get something like nitric acid, considering that it isn't how catalysts work in real life. Would that be simple to code, or really annoying?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Termak »

If catalysts would be totally recycleable it would make using them way too simple, the current system works nicely and after you get mk1 bots moving catalysts and used frames becomes nonissue.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Inoom »

Hello Arch666Angel (sorry for my bad english).
Great work, its really good mod, i trying to use it with bobmod and it works.
But... can you remove not working (but present in research tree and crafting) bob electrolysis, chemical furnace and other research and craftable stuff that not working with Petrochem?

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Light
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Light »

fenderzilla wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:42 pm
Would it possible to add a difficulty setting or something that makes it so catalysts don't get consumed? i.e., a recipe that uses a green metal catalyst would output a green metal catalyst instead of an empty catalyst frame. It doesn't make much sense that I constantly have to pour four different kinds of ore into a machine (iron, copper, silver, bauxite) just to get something like nitric acid, considering that it isn't how catalysts work in real life. Would that be simple to code, or really annoying?
As someone who works in oil and gas, I would love to say with confidence that catalyst is reusable and that we don't need to buy new stock every few years during shutdown. It would save a few million dollars quite easily, plus prevent having to hire workers to clean and restock vessels in remarkably confined spaces.

That isn't the case and catalyst consumption in Angel's is quite simple and fair. At the refinement plant we fill vessels with several metric tonnes of catalyst which lasts a long time. Angel could create a catalyst which is reusable several thousand times before depleting, but gameplay wise the current system is far less of a coding headache while also being pretty low cost and maintenance in general. Receiving 10 cartridges for just two ore is remarkably easy to upkeep.

But if you truly want to have infinite catalysts, you'll have to modify every recipe that uses them to provide a full catalyst instead of the empty cartridge.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by coderpatsy »

Inoom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:08 pm
Hello Arch666Angel (sorry for my bad english).
Great work, its really good mod, i trying to use it with bobmod and it works.
But... can you remove not working (but present in research tree and crafting) bob electrolysis, chemical furnace and other research and craftable stuff that not working with Petrochem?
Currently, Bob's electrolysers are used for lithium ion battery components. Chemical and metal mixing furnaces are used for a few recipes like bob's solder chain (if you want to use it), silicon nitride, and tungsten products.

Also, just because Angel's mods don't use a particular recipe/building doesn't mean that other mods won't.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Inoom »

Currently, Bob's electrolysers are used for lithium ion battery components. Chemical and metal mixing furnaces are used for a few recipes like bob's solder chain (if you want to use it), silicon nitride, and tungsten products.
Wait, really? When i try use it i see "No recipe available"
Or it will be later in researches?

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

ukezi wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:28 pm
I would like a change: Make the catalysts from ore from the same tier. The second uses aluminium and silver. Aluminium can be created with chunks direct sorting, silver needs crystals. the red and blue one is fine, useing tier 1 and 3 ores respectability. The yellow one is wired with tungsten(tier 4) and nickel(tier 2) because there is only one tier 4 material. I would suggest using zinc instead of silver, as it is not used much.
Won't change that for bobs because this will break a lot of games :) But will adjust that for my own overhaul package.
ukezi wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:39 am
Ore sorters work in a MK2. Casting and induction furnaces, even MK1 don't and I need way more of them. I would suggest a new Item, proposed name: Liquid Metal Unit. Made from five Brick and a BCB. You would need one of them for the caster and five for the furnace. That would work without any change to the recipes.
I will take a look at reducing the item count.
Airat9000 wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:00 pm
good afternoon! How can I disable only your resources in the game? I want gold and standard resources to be. and they are not present at generation, even if in adjustments to put what code to register that and that and that was.

добрый день! как мне отключить только ваши ресурсы в игре? хочу что бы золото и стандартные ресурсы были. а их нет при генерации, даже если в настройках поставить какой код прописать что бы и то и то было.
Simple: you dont, why would you play with my mods in the first place if you dont have the resources?
ukezi wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:55 am
I want to talk about the balancing of bio processing.
The side chains from the trees are way weak. You need 60 tree farms just to make 1 pastic/rubber/resin/s. That would also get you 10 wood/s.
With Wood 3 that 60 farms get you 52 Wood. That can be processed with the methanol synthesis to 48 plastic/s, even if you go directly from fiber to methanol you get ~21 plastic/s. You are better off to just make wood and process it with petrochem to make plastic or resin. For the additional complexity you should get more output.

The different types of gardens are also differently strong, with the swamp recipes being about twice as good as the desert one.
The temperate ones are somewhat in between and have often side products, but not enough to make it worth it, as you can produce them directly smaller and cheaper with the direct chains.
If I want to produce nutrient pulp the best is zombieecalyptus, for vegetable oil it's elendilomone also with a wide margin both from the swamp lines.
I would suggest to balance them in a way that they are about equivalent in power or to specialize to one for instance swamp has the strong pulp recipe, desert the strong oil one and temperate the byproducts while still decent. The dormant seed recipes still need to long to cycle up in my mind to use them in any significant amount. Also there is the soil vs mud vs sand consideration to be had but that is minor in comparison.
Bio processing will be target of some more balancing when I finished adding stuff to it, which is not far off there are only hoggers missing that need to be added. Then some chains will be revamped and rethought probably and then follows the balancing :)
Harag wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:22 pm
This has been asked before: It seems the only reason the pressure tank mod has a hard dependency on petrochem is the technology prerequisite on angels-fluid-control. Maybe the dependency could be marked optional and the prerequiste be switched out conditionally? That way the mod could be used on its own.
I changed that for all the addon mods, but haven't released all of them yet.
fenderzilla wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:42 pm
Would it possible to add a difficulty setting or something that makes it so catalysts don't get consumed? i.e., a recipe that uses a green metal catalyst would output a green metal catalyst instead of an empty catalyst frame. It doesn't make much sense that I constantly have to pour four different kinds of ore into a machine (iron, copper, silver, bauxite) just to get something like nitric acid, considering that it isn't how catalysts work in real life. Would that be simple to code, or really annoying?
Catalysts get consumed to at the one hand reflect what Light wrote and on the other hand to give certain chains an "upkeep" because if you take the nitric acid chain as an example you can make the stuff out of thin air and it wont ever be restricted by another thing than you building more setups and energy.

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Arch666Angel
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel »

Image

ukezi
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by ukezi »

I will take a look at reducing the item count.
If you or bob don't reintroduce the limits in item count, they will be gone by 0.17.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by morfledouille »

Arch666Angel wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:28 pm
Image
Is that the new Angels Industries&Science ? Looks awesome !

That many steps in building simple items like belts will probably be a game changer for starter bases :)

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mexmer
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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by mexmer »

like i said already on discord, having too many intermediates for basic items is bad idea.

people might think it's not, because of variety and complexity, but then look at other side, how long it will take you to setup automatization for your basic needs (like belts, inserters, pipes and other stuff, you need in large quantities since start of game ?)

making slow start even slower will not enrich gameplay, but will rather make it more boring and people will be looking for shortcuts. there thin balance between between being complex fun and being complex annoying. slow startup is later one.

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Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar »

I like how AAI Industry makes inserters, belts &c harder to craft, and makes the burner stage last more 5 minutes,
but also makes the burner stage more interesting
by adding stuff like burner assemblers, burner labs, and water-less burner generators !
BobDiggity (mod-scenario-pack)

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