Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

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Rythe
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Rythe » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:02 am

But as a little mea culpa, I really should drop the sarcastic "fair's fair" routine. The truth is that it's in everyone's best interest if I stop caring about what someone wants when they make it clear that they will not reciprocate.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Koub » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 am

There are some things I could do without the physical object ingame.

The pickaxe is the first one : it costs close to nothing, and you only have to replace it when it's broken, which takes a few tens of minutes or hours depending on circumstances.

The weapons : Pistol, machine gun, shotgun, combat shotgun, rocket launcher, flame thrower. These are a one time craft (at most), also infinitesimal in cost. And finally, when considering the system {a weapon, its ammo}, the ammo accounts for almost 100% of the ressource required and 100% of the automation. Getting the weapons as passive upgrades on appropriate research makes totally sense.

The non modular armors : same thing, I don't think one would ever need to craft more than one in a single playthrough. I'm sure most people don't even bother crafting them.

On the burner- topic, I think things are just as they should. I'd love to find something to do with my burner mining drills when I'm done with them, but it's okay. One usually has to build quite a number of them on a new map (otherwise the start is veeeeery long :)). The burner inserter has is uses even in mid-game, for those who want blackout-proof steam power.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by eradicator » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:05 am

Koub wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 am
The weapons : Pistol, machine gun, shotgun, combat shotgun, rocket launcher, flame thrower. These are a one time craft (at most), also infinitesimal in cost. And finally, when considering the system {a weapon, its ammo}, the ammo accounts for almost 100% of the ressource required and 100% of the automation. Getting the weapons as passive upgrades on appropriate research makes totally sense.

The non modular armors : same thing, I don't think one would ever need to craft more than one in a single playthrough. I'm sure most people don't even bother crafting them.
It's not a matter of cost. It just feels much better (=higher immersion factor) and is easier to understand if you have to craft something instead of magically "getting one free". With the new corpse-system there was indeed a sharp decline in re-crafting needs, but if you miss your corpse you can still end up with nothing. Also when i was a beginner i most certainly crafted several heavy vests, because they constantly were eaten by biters when i rambo-charged into their nests to try to heroically destroy a few spawners before retreating. And manually fended off every biter wave. Because ye know..., i simply didn't know much about turrents then.

Let's compare this to first person shooters. You usually start with one weapon, and occasionally find new ones. Once you have aquired a weapon you never lose it again, you only run out of ammo. But now imagine that instead of finding new weapons lying around you magically "just have them" when you walk through certain invisible triggers on the map. I certainly wouldn't like that.

As a modder i'd really like if weapons were expanded to be able to make them more different to each other (spread/range/damage/reload speed/etc) as currently their properties are mostly determined by ammo, so you can't really make a weaponB that shoots the same ammo as weaponA but behaves completely different.
Koub wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 am
The burner inserter has is uses even in mid-game end-game, for those who want blackout-proof steam power.
Fixed that for you. They also serve some uses in circuitry due to their exeptional slowness leisurely pace.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Koub » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:50 am

Actually, an ingame message saying "With the discovery of military technology, you have been able to upgrade your weak hand pistol into a potent machine gun, and managed to craft yourself a slow but powerful shotgun" would do it for me.
I would pair this with a small "tutorial" part explaining how to switch weapons, the ammo stuff, the aiming/firing stuff, ... if the appropriate "show beginner tips" option is checked.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:59 am

eradicator wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:05 am
Let's compare this to first person shooters. You usually start with one weapon, and occasionally find new ones. Once you have aquired a weapon you never lose it again, you only run out of ammo. But now imagine that instead of finding new weapons lying around you magically "just have them" when you walk through certain invisible triggers on the map. I certainly wouldn't like that.
That's a bit of a poor metaphor. Guns aren't a big part of Factorio like they are in first person shooters. This'd be more like if CoD had 5 different shoes that each helped in different ways and they decided to - instead of the shoe-changing mini game they had in the beta - just have you select from a menu your pair from the ones you've unlocked.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by eradicator » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:21 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:59 am
eradicator wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:05 am
Let's compare this to first person shooters. You usually start with one weapon, and occasionally find new ones. Once you have aquired a weapon you never lose it again, you only run out of ammo. But now imagine that instead of finding new weapons lying around you magically "just have them" when you walk through certain invisible triggers on the map. I certainly wouldn't like that.
That's a bit of a poor metaphor. Guns aren't a big part of Factorio like they are in first person shooters. This'd be more like if CoD had 5 different shoes that each helped in different ways and they decided to - instead of the shoe-changing mini game they had in the beta - just have you select from a menu your pair from the ones you've unlocked.
Metaphors are difficult. I wouldn't mind starting a map with a selectable pair of shoes set of weapons. But i don't like magically getting them during a running game, much like in CoD you probably only get newly unlocked things for the next match, and not the current one? (Never played that so feel free to confirm/deny.) But i don't like that kind of "unlock" mechanism in the first place, so i was metaphor'ing about old-school/rpg type shooters where you actually pick up weapons somewhere in the level.

Also from a modders perspective this is an ingredient problem again. If weapons are only "unlockable" via research, then their cost can only be paid in science bottles, and their crafting can not be interesting. And just because combat in vanilla isn't that important doesn't mean you should optimize away all modding capabilities. Removing features with that kind of reasoning is a one-way road. It takes time for the one game-changer mod that utilizes a feature perfectly to appear. Biter/enemy modding capabilities have already been improved (thanks!).
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by wartthog » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:59 pm

Rythe wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:59 pm
Vanilla should be designed as a well-rounded experience in that it has gameplay aspects that appeal to a variety of player types. ... This is how Factorio sells the most units, by appealing to the most players within a cohesive game design.
Meta, semi-political thought:
I was thinking about this yesterday. I would say the polarization in this thread is actually a testament to Wube's success! Not only have various different types of players enjoyed Factorio to the point where they own it internally and defend it viciously, but they actually haven't considered how others might have done the same for entirely different reasons! People aren't just saying, "We should remove X." They're saying, "X is an obvious candidate for removal. It was a mistake to add. I can't believe it would be valuable to any player." I mean, I'm exaggerating of course but you get the idea. It's actually pretty interesting! It's like different people interacting with the same game has created opposing echo chambers. Woah.

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Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:43 am
I think it would be appropriate ... for filtering and priorities to not be available until red and blue splitters.
This! I love the new splitter capabilities, but having them so early has made filter inserters way less useful.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Jon8RFC » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:25 pm

I'm excited about the cleanup. This means that blue science will also have its crafting time or output amount adjusted to fit in more appropriately. Because, why wouldn't it be adjusted?
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Lubricus » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:54 pm

Rythe wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:59 pm
Vanilla should be designed as a well-rounded experience in that it has gameplay aspects that appeal to a variety of player types
This is what many game developers try to do with simplifying and cleaning up and totally destroy the game they are making, resulting in a boring generic game with no appeal for any players.
Wube know that Factorio is a niche game and don't try to change that, that is great. I was afraid when I read the FFF title and got relieved when reading the text and see that they actually only ditch mechanics I don't care about and I don't understand why so many is whining about it. It's maybe the gut feeling that it will get wrong and that we will loose important game mechanics.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Oktokolo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:41 pm

Koub wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 am
The weapons : Pistol, machine gun, shotgun, combat shotgun, rocket launcher, flame thrower. These are a one time craft (at most), also infinitesimal in cost.
The pistol should be axed. Nobody uses it. Just let the player start with a machine gun instead.
The other weapons should become ingredients for matching turrets (yes, vanilla should have rocket and shotgun turrets).

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by pleegwat » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:06 pm

Removing the guns as items would also remove the ability to equip the same gun twice with different ammo.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Oktokolo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:10 pm

pleegwat wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:06 pm
Removing the guns as items would also remove the ability to equip the same gun twice with different ammo.
You would probably only equip the ammo if guns would be removed. Whether you switch between pairs of guns and ammo or just ammo does not really matter.
But i hope, they will invest slightly more dev/artist power to make guns an ingredient instead of removing them completely.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by sthag » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:11 pm

I want to say something mainly to the part "Assembling machine ingredient limit removal".

For this I need to tell a bit so I thought I start with my resume.

tl;dr
Do not make the assembling machines simpler, make them more diverse to enable more variants in factories.


I really like the early game phase of factorio. Also, I like the "lazy bastard" achievement and even more the way of playing, it drives me to.
Not crafting by hand. This of course leads to a focus on assembling machines.
I've attempted several tries for lazy bastard for now and greatly enjoy the way throught the research tree to grab specific findings to get past the problems of not beeing able to craft more oil refineries. The focus on the scarce resources you have, really helped me to understand the need for the different amounts and ratios for big scale factories. I even more enjoy it now to build small scale setups with clusters of assembling machines only producing limited amount of items which I cannot (do not want to) craft by hand. (Maybe I find a screenshot to give an example).
The progress getting to better assembling machines because of their difference, is a key part of this experience for me. I always thought they could be a little more diverse, to be honest.
You talked about the idea behind this and I agree. It does not make much sense according to the recipes and their complexity. However there is a clear effect in the early game until the blue assemblers wipe the difference of complexity nearly away.
But the speed and module capacity is quite a difference isn't it?
The concept of improving an aspect of the game also fits to the research progress of the smelters for example which can be improved too.
I often have this thought about crafting things by hand in comparison to having an assemlbing machine doing it, if I watch youtubers and their mega bases. Don't get me wrong. It is funny to see huge factories grow and all the same constantly producing everything by hand which is not on the belt.
Having this thought I also noticed that all the big factories use just blue assmblers. Only variation is the amount of them.
Maybe a little more difference in the type of assembler could lead to much more possible variations of factories and achieving good ratios or amounts of resources.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the assembling machines are a central element for me. They make everything at the end.
I do not think the argument for the simplification is good. They just need love and a reason.

Long story short.
Why not make the assemblers a little more complex in speed and modules or even size :shock: ?
Nothing huge, but something to state their difference some more than just saying they all could be the same.
It would take much from the game for my part.

I want to finish saying that I really enjoy the Friday Facts. Thanks for sharing all the information and thoughts.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by eformo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:06 am

Lubricus wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:54 pm
Rythe wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:59 pm
Vanilla should be designed as a well-rounded experience in that it has gameplay aspects that appeal to a variety of player types
This is what many game developers try to do with simplifying and cleaning up and totally destroy the game they are making, resulting in a boring generic game with no appeal for any players.
Wube know that Factorio is a niche game and don't try to change that, that is great. I was afraid when I read the FFF title and got relieved when reading the text and see that they actually only ditch mechanics I don't care about and I don't understand why so many is whining about it. It's maybe the gut feeling that it will get wrong and that we will loose important game mechanics.
For those of us who prefer the modded experience, they have already confirmed that we will not be able to keep the mechanics we love. They are being taken away from everyone because vanilla doesn't use them. Hence the hew and cry...

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Jap2.0 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:03 am

Koub wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 am
The weapons : Pistol, machine gun, shotgun, combat shotgun, rocket launcher, flame thrower. These are a one time craft (at most), also infinitesimal in cost... Getting the weapons as passive upgrades on appropriate research makes totally sense.
And how would you propose we switch weapons?
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:50 am

Jap2.0 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:03 am
Koub wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 am
The weapons : Pistol, machine gun, shotgun, combat shotgun, rocket launcher, flame thrower. These are a one time craft (at most), also infinitesimal in cost... Getting the weapons as passive upgrades on appropriate research makes totally sense.
And how would you propose we switch weapons?
Well seeing as they just freed up the Tab key, they could use that.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by theoctopi » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:01 am

I'm sure someone has mentioned this already, but I've given up setting colours on trains and stations because it's... just... tedious. Which is a shame, because I think colours add variety and can carry information.

At the very least a colour picker would be good (I know there is a mod for this, but it ought to be in vanilla).

Better, I'd like to say "This train is carrying iron ore/this station is for iron ore" and have it automatically use the "signature" colour of that item. Ah, glorious consistency! If you wanted to be fancy I could imagine selecting more than one item might colour the engine in diagonal stripes accordingly or add "alt-key" icons to the station.

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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Reika » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:34 am

There are some pro-simplification posters in this thread that I am starting to really struggle to imagine they are serious, as their ideas of allegedly redundant features are growing more and more drastic. I will not name names.

I will say it again: If you need to rip huge sections out of the game just so you can not find it overly complex, grindy, or hard, use mods! Do NOT try to get 20% of the game's features removed just because you personally dislike them, especially when the removal is being done - as Wube has repeatedly stated - from the game engine itself, preventing mods from adding it back!

Years and years ago I used to complain about "hardcore-loving" players, not so much because I disliked people liking hard games but because they frequently demanded that all games be redesigned to fit their preferences. Hell, some of those people still exist (cough cough Elite: Dangerous cough). They often not only did not care that they were forcing their gameplay style on others against their wishes, they often revelled in it, taking a sadistic sort of glee watching everyone they would call "casual" struggle through a game tuned to absurd difficulty.

Well, it is starting to sound like we have some people here, only doing the reverse. People who want the game simplified so badly, so drastically, and so permanently. People who do not care who else is basically losing the Factorio they loved if these people were to get their way. People who, given their statements, might even be taking some sort of joy in that idea.

This is NOT the path the game or the community should go down.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:32 am

Reika wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:34 am
There are some pro-simplification posters in this thread that I am starting to really struggle to imagine they are serious, as their ideas of allegedly redundant features are growing more and more drastic. I will not name names.

I will say it again: If you need to rip huge sections out of the game just so you can not find it overly complex, grindy, or hard, use mods! Do NOT try to get 20% of the game's features removed just because you personally dislike them, especially when the removal is being done - as Wube has repeatedly stated - from the game engine itself, preventing mods from adding it back!
As potentially one of those names, I'd like to vehemently point out that I am not trying to do anything. There is a huge difference between accepting a change and championing it. I don't particularly NEED any of these changes and I certainly never ASKED for them. However, I will admit freely that a lot of them appeal to me.

For example, I agree that there is no real need for a pickaxe object that you craft. I do not however agree that the entire concept of a craftable pickaxe should be removed from the game thereby breaking mods that extend it.

I however don't agree with the detractors that removing the pickaxe will dumb the game down to the point that the unwashed masses are going to suddenly want to start making factories instead of trying to beat their high scores in Flappy Bird, nor do I think that anybody who welcomes not having to bother crafting pickaxes is struggling with the concept of object permanence so much that they've had trouble with the game due to the existence of pickaxes.
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Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by eradicator » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:05 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:32 am
I however don't agree with the detractors that removing the pickaxe will dumb the game down to the point that the unwashed masses are going to suddenly want to start making factories instead of trying to beat their high scores in Flappy Bird,
The problem with that kind of argument is that removing a single element is never going to instantaneously convert the game from x to y. It is the accumulation of tiny changes. And if we start removing a little useless axe here, and a little difficult-to-explain mechanic there, it eventually adds up, shifting the focus of the core game loop a millimeter at a time. And we don't know if the devs actually consider removing even more things. I certainly hope they're not. If you ask a lot of people what their least favourite feature is, and then remove all of them, you probably end up with no game at all. Every feature has someone who dislikes it. So this is very much a "Beware of the Beginnings" situation.
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