Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

[pleegwat]

Grey assemblers are a research. If they become coal powered, then there should be an alternative to electric labs as well, and probably all electric parts should be behind research.

[Oktokolo]

I honestly think it'd be great if AM1 was burner powered. Players are forced too early and too hard to get electricity and there's too many new concepts being piled on players in the early game as is. As a burner device it is almost enough burner content for players to run a complete burner tier base (add a burner research lab to open up a path all the way to blue science). At the very least it sounds like a fun achievement run.

The problem with this is, that the devs will be more likely to completely remove the burner stage than to extend it. I love having the option for using burner stuff so much, that i forked Klonan's BurnerLeech. But there is probably a reason, the burner stage is incomplete and you are forced into electricity for your very first research. They also never fixed burner inserter behaviour to not suck as hard as it does in vanilla (something i try to fix with my mod). It would have been easy for them to do in the inserter logic (wich sadly is still untouchable for mods).
They are probably thinking about axing the burner phase completely right now and i would totally understand that. It does make no sense, that the stranded cosmonaut is using burner inserters that magically can recognize stuff like their electric counterparts. It is much easier to get the game believable without the burner phase. Also, vanilla burner phase sucks hard for most players (new and old) as it is now. So axing it completely would probably be the best option for them and the new players for 0.17.

[otobot1]

"Since it was yet another thing that had to be explained somehow, we decided to just remove it."

Seriously? I'm totally against removing AM ingredient limits from vanilla. As many others have stated, it adds a valuable sense of progression to the early technologies. Without it, I think the beginning of the game will feel more aimless, and the automation techs won't be as interesting because there will be almost no incentive to upgrade the AMs until way later in the game once there is a surplus of resources. Should the limitation be explained better than currently? Yeah sure. It's not super super obvious right now. But just explain it through a thoughtfully named line on the AM tooltip. Easy. And there have been some interesting points shared on making AM1s less useless by either increasing the ingredient limit by 1 or by tweaking some early recipies. Either of those changes seem reasonable.

Secondly, I'm disappointed in the removal of efficiency. As others said, it was a nice touch that made Factorio feel more grounded in science and reality. And I honestly don't think its that hard to understand that something with 50% efficiency needs twice as much fuel as something with 100% efficiency. But whatever, this change isn't the end of the world.

Regarding pickaxes, I'm not too fussed. I feel like maybe just removing tool durability might have been better than changing it to a tech. It's kinda fun to make a tool for yourself and change for change's sake isn't something to strive for. But again, whatever. The mining changes I think are probably a good thing, although I feel some sympathy for the work Bob and Angel will have to do.

TL;DR: Not loving any of the changes. Most feel like they come from a good idea but weren't quite thought out as well as they could've been, and for heaven's sake DON'T REMOVE AM INGREDIENT LIMITS.

[J-H]

Off Topic since the Devs are reading this:
Can we please get a function so that when a player mouses over an option in his personal crafting menu, any existing inventory slots that already contain the item are highlighted?
With something like 120-150 inventory slots, it's hard to tell at a glance whether or not I already have boilers/heat exchangers/sorter inserters/rail stops/etc. already made, or whether I need to make one more to drop where I need it.

It's already highlighted like this. I could agree that it's not very visible (light gray changing into light orange), but it's already in the game nevertheless.

Not on my computer. Is this a Beta function?

Experimental version is not available atm, so it's base feature. See picture - I'm hovering repair pack and repair packs in my inventory get orange highlight. I assume that's what you meant?
https://i.imgur.com/Dcw8dyF.jpg

Huh. Well, now I see it. I guess I've only been looking when it's been items that I don't have in my inventory.
Thanks.

[Rythe]

The problem with this is, that the devs will be more likely to completely remove the burner stage than to extend it. I love having the option for using burner stuff so much, that i forked Klonan's BurnerLeech. But there is probably a reason, the burner stage is incomplete and you are forced into electricity for your very first research. They also never fixed burner inserter behaviour to not suck as hard as it does in vanilla (something i try to fix with my mod). It would have been easy for them to do in the inserter logic (wich sadly is still untouchable for mods).
They are probably thinking about axing the burner phase completely right now and i would totally understand that. It does make no sense, that the stranded cosmonaut is using burner inserters that magically can recognize stuff like their electric counterparts. It is much easier to get the game believable without the burner phase. Also, vanilla burner phase sucks hard for most players (new and old) as it is now. So axing it completely would probably be the best option for them and the new players for 0.17.

The problem with that is, that the burner stage is a necessary crutch to create your first electric network at the moment. That's pump, boilers, poles, pipes, steam engines and electric miners you'd need right at game start in order to skip straight to the electric phase. Nevermind coal, iron, and copper and wood resource collection in order to make anything useful. That's a very complicated start and a lot of items needed to pull it off.

The electric phase is practically designed so that the player can't start there. However much work it'd take to fix burners, it's way, waaaay less than what they'd need to figure out in order to get a straight electric start to not suck horribly.

[Selvek]

And suddenly, your megabase needs 5% more mining drills to keep up. Thats roughly... 6 new ore patches you need to cover

But the complexity reduction is great! While we're on the subject, how come NONE of the assemblers have a crafting speed of 100%?

[Rythe]

And here's the promised thread unto itself on pickaxes.

I may have gotten a bit too poetic, but it gets the point across.

[DaveMcW]

While we're on the subject, how come NONE of the assemblers have a crafting speed of 100%?

Assembling machine 1 has 50% of the player's crafting speed to encourage players to build several of them in a row, instead of solving every recipe with one machine. There is a similar argument for assembling machine 2.

But now that assembling machine 2's ingredient advantage has been nerfed, it might be time to boost it to 100%. Maybe make the recipe slightly harder (steel plates?) and the tech more expensive (green science) so players can't rush AM2 so easily.

[Mike5000]

And here's the promised thread unto itself on pickaxes.

Thank you for this.

Factorio once had a story that held great promise for free play, scenarios, and campaigns. But there is no story in +N% research "achievements" which is what the lowly pickaxe is now set to become.

I would prefer that we still started with stone axes, that the burner era was fleshed out, that electricity was a real and significant achievement, and that options were provided for those who wished to skip technology tiers when starting a map.

Personally I derive no satisfaction from plonking down megabase blueprints until I give up in UPS frustration but I have no wish to interfere with the enjoyment of those who do. So why do they insist on hollowing out the Factorio experience when, rather than removing pickaxes, their ends would best be served by the simple expedient of starting with their preferred levels of research and/or resources?

[Rythe]

EDIT: Things that were not removed from the game egine are out of the way, so let's talk things that were removed - pickaxes So did any mod use the tool slot for anything iteresting? (Don't care about Diamond pickaxe with mining power 5, just change it to technology research bonus, as steel axe was changed). I thought maybe Nanobots, but I just checked and it uses weapon slot, not tool slot.

And I suppose I could do a quick TL;DR for this thread as a direct answer to Posila on the pickaxe, even though you really, really need to read it for full understanding.

Crafting the pickaxe first thing is actually super important for new players to Factorio. It forms the inner logic chain and subconscious bridge of understanding between more common game types (Minecraft) and Factorio (largely factory sim now). It's kind of genius actually, if the goal is to get your player to understand how your game works from basically zero understanding.

Crafting the pickaxe first thing also forms a bedrock game mechanic theme - you build things to empower yourself for ever expanding definitions of yourself. Research that works without any crafting involved betrays that bedrock game mechanic theme.

If Wube cares to fix this, it's actually really easy now that the UI has a pretty robust ghost placement scheme (that probably needs to be expanded one more step so a player can fulfill a building/vehicle ghost module/loadout in a single click without bots?)

Infinity research also breaks game balance almost by definition, so infinity research makes it super hard to craft a cohesive game experience. Deadly in a campaign, maybe allowable in freeplay.

That post touches so many things in a neat little story that I had trouble figuring out what forum it belonged in. <.<

[Rythe]

Thank you for this.

Quite welcome.

[ratchetfreak]

honestly if properly marked limiting recipes from certain assemblers is not a bad idea.

But linking it exclusivly to number of ingredients isn't the best and restricts you from excluding some items to higher tier assemblers.

[Lubricus]

The problem with this is, that the devs will be more likely to completely remove the burner stage than to extend it. I love having the option for using burner stuff so much, that i forked Klonan's BurnerLeech. But there is probably a reason, the burner stage is incomplete and you are forced into electricity for your very first research. They also never fixed burner inserter behaviour to not suck as hard as it does in vanilla (something i try to fix with my mod). It would have been easy for them to do in the inserter logic (wich sadly is still untouchable for mods).
They are probably thinking about axing the burner phase completely right now and i would totally understand that. It does make no sense, that the stranded cosmonaut is using burner inserters that magically can recognize stuff like their electric counterparts. It is much easier to get the game believable without the burner phase. Also, vanilla burner phase sucks hard for most players (new and old) as it is now. So axing it completely would probably be the best option for them and the new players for 0.17.

The problem with that is, that the burner stage is a necessary crutch to create your first electric network at the moment. That's pump, boilers, poles, pipes, steam engines and electric miners you'd need right at game start in order to skip straight to the electric phase. Nevermind coal, iron, and copper and wood resource collection in order to make anything useful. That's a very complicated start and a lot of items needed to pull it off.

The electric phase is practically designed so that the player can't start there. However much work it'd take to fix burners, it's way, waaaay less than what they'd need to figure out in order to get a straight electric start to not suck horribly.

I think the start with burner stuff is backwards in sense of game mechanics, where the burner stuff designs is more complex to setup than electric stuff. The game should go from simple -> complex. On the other hand it makes sense in a thematic way.

[LemonZawodowiec]

Assembler item ingredient limit is THE CORE mechanic of the game.
I play now Bob's + Angel's + Payloads + SpaceX + 30 Science and i try to make it with "Lazy Bastard" achievement.
Crafting ingredient number for items is A CORE MECHANIC that is in a way of upgrading the Base.
It lengthens my play-through. I can't craft Angels Smelting buildings because i'm stuck on 4 ingredient crafting,
and Angel's Smelting buildings take at least 5 ingredients. I cant craft many of them before i get Assembler MK3
that can craft 6 ingredient items and for that i need to automate 15 or so Science Packs with Assemblers MK2.

The reason why you think the Ingredient Limit on assemblers is something you could just remove from the base game is...
The BASE game IS TOO SIMPLE!!! You advance to the "End Game" Assembler way too fast if you played the game at least once...
Base game play-through is as simple as that: Automate -> Green Circuits -> Plastics -> Red Circuits -> Sulfuric Acid -> Blue Circuits -> Assembler MK3 -> Multiply Production of ALL -> Rocket "The End"...
Now tell me WHICH of those steps CAN'T be made by Assembler MK2... As you can see this mechanic of ingredient limit don't bring anything to the base game. But is THE CORE to the "Moded" experience.

If you cut this thing you can also delete "Lazy Bastard" achievement cause there will be no reason for it to exist... BECAUSE THERE IS NO CHALLENGE IN IT this way. And i bet speed-runners will be happy with this gone - i bet in 0.17 the world record for Rocket will go below 2h like in 0.14

Now you must to think about how complex and deep you want your game to be. I don't know if you look at your competition but those that come after you will learn from your game development too. I don't want to see this game to be reduced to something like PUBG that competitors made their products relate better to the audience... How many of your players will go over to Fortress Craft Evolved or to Satisfactory.

I want you to get the level of complexity for the game to be as in Bob's Mods and/or Angel's but the learning curve for the game to be easier than Dwarf Fortress. I wish you get back this mechanic for 0.18 or sooner because i think it is needed for this game but you dont know how to use it in a good game for the game.

I can tell you that i have 90% of certainty that your oversimplifying things will make me to see how the game feels in 0.17 and than immediately go back to 0.16

[dog80]

so when are you going to remove radars?

[dog80]

Assembler item ingredient limit is THE CORE mechanic of the game.
I play now Bob's + Angel's + Payloads + SpaceX + 30 Science and i try to make it with "Lazy Bastard" achievement.
Crafting ingredient number for items is A CORE MECHANIC that is in a way of upgrading the Base.
It lengthens my play-through. I can't craft Angels Smelting buildings because i'm stuck on 4 ingredient crafting,
and Angel's Smelting buildings take at least 5 ingredients. I cant craft many of them before i get Assembler MK3
that can craft 6 ingredient items and for that i need to automate 15 or so Science Packs with Assemblers MK2.

The reason why you think the Ingredient Limit on assemblers is something you could just remove from the base game is...
The BASE game IS TOO SIMPLE!!! You advance to the "End Game" Assembler way too fast if you played the game at least once...
Base game play-through is as simple as that: Automate -> Green Circuits -> Plastics -> Red Circuits -> Sulfuric Acid -> Blue Circuits -> Assembler MK3 -> Multiply Production of ALL -> Rocket "The End"...
Now tell me WHICH of those steps CAN'T be made by Assembler MK2... As you can see this mechanic of ingredient limit don't bring anything to the base game. But is THE CORE to the "Moded" experience.

If you cut this thing you can also delete "Lazy Bastard" achievement cause there will be no reason for it to exist... BECAUSE THERE IS NO CHALLENGE IN IT this way. And i bet speed-runners will be happy with this gone - i bet in 0.17 the world record for Rocket will go below 2h like in 0.14

Now you must to think about how complex and deep you want your game to be. I don't know if you look at your competition but those that come after you will learn from your game development too. I don't want to see this game to be reduced to something like PUBG that competitors made their products relate better to the audience... How many of your players will go over to Fortress Craft Evolved or to Satisfactory.

I want you to get the level of complexity for the game to be as in Bob's Mods and/or Angel's but the learning curve for the game to be easier than Dwarf Fortress. I wish you get back this mechanic for 0.18 or sooner because i think it is needed for this game but you dont know how to use it in a good game for the game.

I can tell you that i have 90% of certainty that your oversimplifying things will make me to see how the game feels in 0.17 and than immediately go back to 0.16

no its just a useless limitation and just slows things down - first you have to spend around 15 minutes to get the ass2 tech then 2. you have to use assembler 2 units on crafting items that are not required to use the speed of assembler 2 --- i find removing this limit is the best thing since a long time - its so much more painless to automate things in early game

[Rythe]

I think the start with burner stuff is backwards in sense of game mechanics, where the burner stuff designs is more complex to setup than electric stuff. The game should go from simple -> complex. On the other hand it makes sense in a thematic way.

Not entirely accurate. The point of burner tech is you can plop down a drill, toss some wood or coal in, and it just works. That's fewer steps than setting up a steam plant and stringing poles everywhere.

The complicated part is automating the fueling. But there's a really nifty aspect to that too. Coal lines are a concrete representation of the more abstract electrical grid. It's a nifty way to demonstrate what an electrical grid is doing, like a learning device for kids.

Burner tech was once handing the newbie player an incomplete and critically flawed tool set, but now that burner inserters can fuel themselves, it's just incomplete. That change to burner inserters a while back was more important than most of us realized, I think. Certainly than I did.

[layus]

I was not aware that there were size limits for recipes and assemblers. It was just plain clear from the item's tooltip that you could only craft it in the highlighted factories (including by hand or not). Please keep the limit to only factor high-end products in high-end factories.

[meganothing]

...
Crafting the pickaxe first thing is actually super important for new players to Factorio.
...
That post touches so many things in a neat little story that I had trouble figuring out what forum it belonged in. <.<

Kudos on creating an interesting to read essay. But lets remove some of the pathos ("super important" !!, really?) and go back to the basics:

Whether to make a technological improvement only applicable for new stuff or retroactively is a decision many games with building and tech-trees had to make. There are many examples of both philosophies around and there are excellent games in either category. It obviously has an influence on balancing and also on the amount of "busy work" that might or might not follow a tech jump.

I don't see any serious game-play problem if Factorio had gone the other way, it would have meant the upgrade planner would probably have been in the vanilla game much earlier to prevent players with OCD getting into grind-loops. A positive consequence: There sometimes would have been interesting decisions whether to upgrade specific factories or not.

Another admittedly interesting result: You could still see very slow bots besides fast bots roaming a base if you didn't upgrade or replace them. Visually a treat. Nice.

But apart from that the game wouldn't have changed in fundamental ways like you are implying. The game would be largely the same.

So again, nice swan song for a way that never really was in Factorio. But tech updates immediately in Factorio, and with that the last remnant of a justification for the useless pickaxe in the user interface is gone as well.

[Engimage]

I have put up a suggestion to streamline early stage of the game as a part of cleaning up the mechanics.
Bob also linked nice image as a mockup for the idea
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