Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 7387
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by kovarex » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:02 pm

I would like to clarify some things:
  • Stone furnace versus steel furnace coal efficiency ratio is still the same (steel furnace uses half the coal per product compared to stone furnace), this is easily controlled by the actual energy consumption of the furnaces. The same goes when you compare electric furnaces versus steel/stone. As the coal per generated energy stays the same.
  • Basically all of the ratios (coal per time, coal per product) is the same for furnaces, car, tank, boiler and inserter.
  • The only difference that couldn't be avoided without hack is trains as their burner efficiency was already at 100% (for some reason we don't understand, probably random). So their fuel consumption was doubled, but it was considered to be too low anyway.
  • The other difference that could be avoided, but we didn't want to, was to reduce the energy of nuclear fuel. It still is 1.21GJ

Rhamphoryncus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Rhamphoryncus » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:05 pm

I'm happy with all the changes, but the assemblers stand out because the ingredient limit was the wrong way to differentiate them and speed alone isn't enough. They need more interesting differences, such as how they interact with productivity/modules/beacons (which I'm still hoping will get a redesign.)

kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 7387
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by kovarex » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:12 pm

Also, with the hardness, the argument why to remove it completely was, that we still have the mechanism of "mining category".
So if a mod wants to lock mining of certain resource to a certain miner, he can just use a mining category that the basic drills not handle.

OvermindDL1
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:12 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by OvermindDL1 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:26 pm

You know we have wearable armor with grids, vehicles with grids, kind of have buildings with 'grids'/modules, why not have items with grids? Going with that matter Manipulator theme earlier it could also have a grid, say with some starting equipment such as a `Solar Panel`, `In-Hand Construction`, `Simple Mining` and so forth. It could have a usual but large durability like the armors, and it explains as to why you can construct things in hand, do mining, or add whatever other equipment makes sense (deconstruction speed equipment too perhaps instead of lumping it into mining). This way you get it from game start, it makes some of the players native abilities make more sense, and it is upgradeable via equipment instead of just some magical research bonuses. Perhaps allow mods make better ones with larger grids and their own equipment, etc... If it is selectable ala weapons then players choose more between mining and fighting (you generally aren't doing the same thing at the same time for obvious reason) and it would let you put on weapon attachments such as lasers or whatever comes up. Having it be in normal slots like weapons meaning that you could outfit different ones with different equipment internally (like armors though less manually swapping slots thankfully).

Xheotris
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Xheotris » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:49 pm

No matter manipulators. It's janky in Starbound, it's cumbersome in Minecraft, it's beside the point here.

Vxsote
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:51 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Vxsote » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:53 pm

kovarex wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:12 pm
Also, with the hardness, the argument why to remove it completely was, that we still have the mechanism of "mining category".
So if a mod wants to lock mining of certain resource to a certain miner, he can just use a mining category that the basic drills not handle.
I see the logic in this, but it also seems to be less "factorio", if you will. Sure there are some things that need to be unlocked so that you can do other things, but a large part of the game to me is being able to do things one way (the hard way, rather than not at all), and later being able to do things the easy way.

If I understand the other comments about the mods correctly (I have not tried them yet, personally, but had planned to), you can slowly drill hard materials with inferior drills until you are ready to build better ones. A somewhat analogous (although not perfect) comparison could be belts: there isn't anything you are disallowed from transporting on a yellow belt that forces you to upgrade to red. And you have the option to keep using yellow belts as long as you want, and build your red belt factory (and blue, of course) when you feel like it.

At the same time, you are removing a restriction on assemblers so that people can make complex recipes slowly instead of not at all. It seems like the philosophy is a bit inconsistent.

Blacky007
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Blacky007 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:57 pm

I don't know if you killed some of your supporting modder with this FFF. is it worth it?

DanGio
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 6:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by DanGio » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:00 pm

I don't like the mining tool replacement (increased speed when Steel tech is unlocked).

NPE-wise, giving the information of an increased mining speed to the player is no better than letting him craft an actual tool. I bet that lot of new players will think that mining drills speed is increased with this bonus. If you remove the tool, also remove the "hand mining speed" concept and give us the "steelaxe speed" right at the beginning.

However I do like how useless complexity is being removed. The ideal solution, to me, would have been to :
- keep the pickaxe items in the game
- remove weariness of tools and armor & consume previous tier when crafting new equipment
- so every weapon, armor, armor equipment, mining tool would be in the same "equipment" category and be equipped the same way, in the same GUI.

Mining tools would be an introduction of how to equip gear and would be part of a cool NPE.
Last edited by DanGio on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Nefrums
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:57 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Nefrums » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:04 pm

kovarex wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:02 pm
I would like to clarify some things:
  • Stone furnace versus steel furnace coal efficiency ratio is still the same (steel furnace uses half the coal per product compared to stone furnace), this is easily controlled by the actual energy consumption of the furnaces. The same goes when you compare electric furnaces versus steel/stone. As the coal per generated energy stays the same.
  • Basically all of the ratios (coal per time, coal per product) is the same for furnaces, car, tank, boiler and inserter.
  • The only difference that couldn't be avoided without hack is trains as their burner efficiency was already at 100% (for some reason we don't understand, probably random). So their fuel consumption was doubled, but it was considered to be too low anyway.
  • The other difference that could be avoided, but we didn't want to, was to reduce the energy of nuclear fuel. It still is 1.21GJ
Thanks for that clarification.

I want to ask for another clarification if I may.
Will ore patches be bigger by default to compensate for the redused miner speed?
As you will nead 28 electric miners per yellow belt instead of the old 26.

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 6733
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by bobingabout » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:08 pm

Mike5000 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:37 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm
I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...
It sure seems that it would have been better just to hide superfluous details from the UI rather than destroying so much hard work.
Pretty much every change on that list says "Oh, and we're going to break Bob's mods by doing this"
eradicator wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:35 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm
I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...
As far as my past thought experiements go you should be able to model around it with resource-categories...
It's not just the ores... Sure, I'll need to remove my mining axes and create new technologies there, rework my ores and mining drills... the change to boilers means I will need to either just level everything to 100% efficiency(Because I'm not going over 100%), or revert that one specific change, the reduced number of damage types means I'll probably have to add them again for my enemies and warfare mods, or just streamline... Even removing the assembling machine ingredient limits means I have to look into changing something, because I'll either have to remove all limits to match the base game, or re-add the ones they've just removed... but the change to energy values on solid fuels is actually the most upsetting, I pretty much defined all my fuel values of everything else based on the fuel value of solid fuel. Add in that not all of the fuel values are actually halved, due to the result being a fraction when expressed in MJ(Solid fuel was 25MJ and rocket fuel was 225MJ. I'm not going to share actual values, but I can see them in the 0.17 source access on github), means that these delicately balanced calculations are not only going to give me different results, but since one of these was to calculate how much revamped rocket fuel should cost to make, the results don't even match anymore....

That's a total rework on 3 mods(Ores, Enemies and Mining), a large scale partial rework on another 2 (Power and Warfare) and more changes across the board (at least plates, revamp and assembling machines will need fuel value and ingredient limit tweaks, and possibly more)

That's a lot to dump on me from just one FFF... It's probably more than everything else previously in 0.17.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

User avatar
Light
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Light » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:28 pm

This list is quite easily the biggest kick in the nuts for those who enjoy mods for a more in-depth experience.

It wouldn't have been a problem if it were just simplification for vanilla with the code intact for mods, but outright removal of core features? That's a major impact on Bob's and Angel's which are massively popular with the modding community. That's not including other mods that make extensive use of efficiencies and other systems as their core function.

The decision to screw mods is bad enough that we'll need to have a standalone 0.16 folder just to enjoy the game properly. You seriously must reconsider keeping the code for mod developers to utilise, even if the vanilla experience doesn't use it. Removing options and features for mod makers is a bad move for any game and I was surprised to see that confirmed given mods are the lifeblood for many of us.

AntiElite
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by AntiElite » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:37 pm

I'm not very happy with the indirect Miner nerf, in the future you will need 14 miners per side to fill a lane. Personally i find mining and smelting already the most boring part of the game, because it does not contribute to the "spaghetti puzzles" that I love Factorio for. This means instead of actual base building, i will be stuck with even more with outposting in the future.

Also, while it seems very reasonable to remove the ingredient limit on all assemblers, I don't like the change very much as of now. In the past there was a huge tech step allowing Inserter (and therefore green science automation) automation, only to be possble with a level 2 assembler that you had to research first. With these changes, blue assemblers are now rather useless, unless for the module slots. Also Lazy bastard really becomes way more meaningless. I enjoyed 100% very much because of the beginning with LB and GOTLAP, that made for very interesting decisions to be made. Now you can basically automate everything just from the beginning, making this challenge trivial.

However, I like the removal of boiler efficiency and ore hardness.

User avatar
DaveMcW
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2810
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 11:06 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by DaveMcW » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:01 pm

AntiElite wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:37 pm
I enjoyed 100% very much because of the beginning with LB
Machochist! :shock:

Beginning of lazy bastard is the worst, because you can only use one mining drill until you have an assembling machine 2. At least now you can build mining drills with assemling machine 1.
Last edited by DaveMcW on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Serenity
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:16 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Serenity » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:01 pm

Simplifying calculations is generally a good idea. Though the issues with mods that add more complex ores is certainly there

But I don't like the assembly machine change either. Going from AM1 to AM2 really feels like your first big progression. It's a sign that you're getting to true automation instead of just having a crude factory still relying on a lot of hand work. The ingredient limit is only an issue with the automation of refinery production, which needs AM3

User avatar
Reika
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 426
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 1:56 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Reika » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:09 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:08 pm
the reduced number of damage types means I'll probably have to add them again for my enemies and warfare mods, or just streamline
And that is if they do not end up removing that functionality from the engine as well, which I cannot get a clear answer on. If they lock us to just those damage types, how in the hell are we supposed to have things like dirty bombs or bullets that are great against some enemy types (eg spitters) but not others?

thelordodin
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:54 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by thelordodin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:15 pm

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm
I'm just going to go sit in the corner and cry now...
I want to support bobingabout.
He done so much great job for us, we all should respect it.

I do understand "It's just beta, there will be breaking changes!"
But I think this should be at least some support to modders, bobingabout - specifically.

Look at the number of downloads, his mods with no doubt IS a part of the game for many.

I think you should consider:
- Leaving the values for most of the things internally, while allowing the modders to use it.
- Mark the rest as [deprecated] and give some of this changes time to be applied to mods.
- And only few releases later - completly remove it.

I do aggree the pickaxe should be removed - quite obvious

But resistances, effectivity, mining hardnes, mining power... - are you really sure?
Well I mean, ok, it's all preparations for 1.00, BUT
have a look at bob mods.

- He is using mining power for example for sulfur.
- He is using resistances to make enemies MUCH more interesting.

Now, are you sure you don't want to make new interesting ores in 2.0?
Or you might want to make Uranium mining hardness = 5 but rising it's output?
Or you want to implement some interesting enemies?
Same for effectivity

I don't think you don't use all this because you dont need it.
I think you didn't use it because you all had too much work to use it.

When you release this game finally and happily you'll have a little more time for new ideas.
And you might need this mechanics... Dont waste it...

ikarikeiji
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by ikarikeiji » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:36 pm

> Pickaxe removal

Single hand-mining speed stat, improveable by research, and no more suddenly having to craft picks when they arbitrarily run out? Yay!

> Removing burner efficiency in base game

Makes sense, and mods can undo the change and provide their own efficiency per prototype, no problems here.

> Removing mining power and hardness

I think this should be brought back, but just as something that's accessible to mods and hidden from GUI by default.
Take what you have just made for 0.17 and make the following change: set all miners' mining power to 2, all ores' mining hardness to 1, then, when calculating ores per second, multiply by (mining power - mining hardness) at the end, and set to zero if the result is negative.
This will restore the lost functionality in a mathematically equivalent but much cleaner way and won't make any difference to the vanilla game from what you've got now.

> Resistances

I can't really comment on this as I haven't played a game involving biters ever since alien artifacts were removed and even before that I never paid attention to them.

> Assembling machine ingredient limit removal

This is plain silly imo. The ingredient limit should be kept, at least in modding API so we can restore it ourselves with mods, but I do think it should be in vanilla too. Yes it's arbitrary but it's a game, virtually everything is arbitrary to some extent. As someone said earlier in the thread, it makes the assemblers different in more than just speed, and creates more of a sense of achievement when you get the upgrade.

Monara
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by Monara » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:42 pm

I don't like being negative here but this is the first time I completely disagree with changes described.
This whole FFF reads like someone found some superfluous mechanics and simplified them, but then everyone went overboard trying to match that and started cutting out huge chunks of core gameplay mechanics without considering what that would do to the game just to say they simplified something.
Especially the assembly machine changes just go completely against the spirit of the game.
Yes, removing more and more mechanics does simplify the game, but noone stopped and considered if that would actually make the game better?
Even the mining hardness changes are just a kick in the nuts to your dedicated community and modders. Those mechanics are already in game, working perfectly fine and are used effectively in many widely used mods.
And what exactly do you gain from completely removing the code for this? I mean come on, why not just change the values to 1 for vanilla so they don't affect the mining speed and hide them from the tooltip unless they have nondefault values? It accomplishes exactly the same thing without having to revamp the code and without screwing over mods and without removing interesting mechanics that actually add valuable gameplay.
I won't even start on the ingredient limit removal. Just a completely pointless removal of a good progression mechanic. Nothing more to be said.

AntiElite
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by AntiElite » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:50 pm

Dear Devs,
I am very sad about the removal of the Steelaxe. It has been the mascot of my Twitch channel for years now, and a whole community named #TeamSteelaxe formed around this item, which is the largest and most active Factorio community on Twitch. The meme "Praise the Steelaxe" has emerged from it, to praise the Factorio God. In addition, there is a beginner's speedrun called Steelaxe%, which is very popular and attracts a lot of new players to Factorio Speedruns.

Personally I think that alone should be enough to keep this item in the game: it doesn’t really do any harm to keep this item in the game, but its removal does harm to the Twitch Speedrunning community. However, I can understand the reason to remove the pickaxes from the game; they don't really serve a purpose at their current cost.

Even though I'm not in the position to ask for something, I would be very happy about finding a way to keep the Steelaxe in the game. I think unlocking the increased crafting speed with researching "steel" seems very counterintuitive to new players and only veterans will understand and notice this. Therefore, I suggest an additional research called "Steelaxe" that costs 50 red/green science, and is unlocked after researching Steel first. It would just increase the Mining Speed as planned anyway and change the Pickaxe in the player model to the actual Steelaxe automatically. This would not only have the advantage of making it more transparent to new player why their mining speed just increased, but also save our beloved community's mascot and preserve the Steelaxe% beginner’s Speedrun.

I hope you consider this compromise. It may not be a big thing for you, but it really is for us.
Best,
AntiElitz & Community (TeamSteelaxe)

bobucles
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1578
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #266 - Cleanup of mechanics

Post by bobucles » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:53 pm

Reduce the number of damage types to something like: generic, impact, heat, and acid.
This is a tricky one. I think it may be better to think of damage types in terms of something more like this:
- PvE mechanics
- PvP mechanics
- EvE mechanics
Ideally you want players vs. biters to have a certain feel to it. At the same time, you want player vs. player environments to have its own, separate feel to it. The current damage mechanics have a large amount of overlap that makes it incredibly difficult to separate the two. Tanks are an obvious example of this. Tanks have heavy resistances so they can stand up against biters (and their own self damage!), which makes them feel very satisfying against biters. At the same time, those high resistances make a mess of PvP mechanics against tanks. Weapons like missile launchers end up nearly ineffective, which is not an intuitive expectation for killing vehicles.

Flat damage reduction is a very difficult mechanic to get feeling right, especially when damage values cover several decades of magnitude. Flat DR creates an asymptotic relationship, where very little effects are observed on the low end and it skyrockets into perfect protection towards the high end. This isn't always a bad thing because it lets you force a tech progression from the player. If weak weapons can no longer breach thicker armor, the only option is to develop stronger weapons. In a PvE scenario this is perfectly acceptable, but it can screw up PvP scenarios by making players nearly invincible in a bad way.
Last edited by bobucles on Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mmmPI, RocketManChronicles, Serenity, Zeg