Laptop suitability & megabase compatible rig configuration

[Koub]

Eradicator, my budget is maybe £500-600, I've already got a monitor but no keyboard/mouse.

Well ... I did a quick and dirty configuration check with this budget, and it's there : https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-co ... GRjWXV7tE/
Bear in mind that :
1) I always mount my computers myself. It allows me to get the best prices possible by choosing the cheapest vendor for a given hardware element. Plus it saves the cost of mounting. If you can do so, this configuration will likely cost you less than 600£.
2) I had to do some sacrifices to lower the price tag. These sacrifices are :
- RAM. RAM is ridiculously expensive these years. Even if it has started lowering a little since the beginning of the year, it's still around twice what it was 2 years ago. For a gaming rig, I'd suggest 16 GB DDR4 3000 (2x8) I sacrificed speed and quantity, but took a 1x8, so that you can add another 8GB later on
- CPU : I chose an i3-8100 instead of the i5-8500 I wanted. If you can afford the i5-8500, it would be a better choice.
- GPU : thanks to (because of) cryptocurrency mining, video card prices are consistently high. I'd rather have chosen a 1050 Ti (4GB) or a 1060 (4GB) instead of this 1050 (2 GB). Not for Factorio, but for other AAA titles, that would benefit from a higher GPU.
- small-ish disks. I'd have preferred a 250 GB OS SSD instead of this 128 GB, and a 2TB HDD instead of this 500 GB. But everything comes at a price, right ?
The first configuration I tried was more around 900-ish£, so I had to tune down.

I purposefully chose a good (thus expensive) PSU (People often underestimate the benefits of a good PSU). 80 Plus Gold will get you good savings on power, and a high enough maximum power will ensure your PC will be used in the most efficient range of your PSU when on high load. I eyeballed to 250-300W peak consumption of this configuration, which should pu you clost to 50% load on the PSU, so 90+ efficiency. More info and math here : https://outervision.com/pc-energy-cost.

All that said, making a computer is no science, every one will have one's preferences. ATM, I'm not convinced by AMD CPU&GPUs. They have gotten better than 2 years ago, but for gaming purposes, I think they are suboptimal. Things may change, so I keep an eye on this.

[eradicator]

- CPU : I chose an i3-8100 instead of the i5-8500 I wanted. If you can afford the i5-8500, it would be a better choice.

Meh. Now i'd be really interested in the actual difference in factorio for same speed/different speed i3 vs i5 vs i7. Someone should ask on reddit :P.

Also a random article on single vs dual channel says you lose about 20% bandwidth by going single channel. Which normal games don't care about, but factorio might. Is quad channel still a thing? Might be interesting to keep that open as a possible upgrade path.

[je11693]

- CPU : I chose an i3-8100 instead of the i5-8500 I wanted. If you can afford the i5-8500, it would be a better choice.

Meh. Now i'd be really interested in the actual difference in factorio for same speed/different speed i3 vs i5 vs i7. Someone should ask on reddit .

Also a random article on single vs dual channel says you lose about 20% bandwidth by going single channel. Which normal games don't care about, but factorio might. Is quad channel still a thing? Might be interesting to keep that open as a possible upgrade path.

By "single channel" and "dual channel" you mean the RAM?

I woul be interested to know the difference in performance between i3 vs i5.. I presume you can build a mega base with both, but i5 will run better (faster?)

I posted a reddit thread for buildapcforme to see what suggestions came back. This is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapcforme/ ... dvicehelp/

Koub: your suggestion above comes to ~£713 on that site, including VAT. If you look at the second suggestion in the reddit link, I think it may be modifiable to get closer to your preferred recommendation:

Take out the headset, mouse, keyboard and case and replace with your suggestions (or even the £17 case).
The power unit is bronze (vs your gold one) and lower wattage. Could this be used (saves £31)
There doesn't seem to be a fan/cooler in the reddit list (is it necessary?), so add in yours at £29
Your preferred graphics card is included
1TB (not quite 2TB, but better that 500GB?)
240GB SSD (not quite 250GB, but better than 128GB)
Switch out the suggested RAM for 2x4GB 3000MHz RAM (£89.99 vs £68.99 for the 2400 one suggested. Does this meet the RAM requirements?)
Switch the CPU to an i5 (Intel BX80684I58400 8th Gen Core i5-8400 Processor) for £169.66 vs £107.99. This is 8400 vs your 8500 suggestion. What is the difference? Will using an 8400 instead have much of an impact? EDIT: that i5 is only 2.8GHz compared to what I think is 3GHz in your suggestion..
Unsure how that Motherboard compares to the one in your list.. Any thoughts?

Neither seems to have Windows, perhaps I could just use Linux and Eradicator's suggestion (thanks Eradicator )

Also, how could I incorporate wifi into it so I can use it for the internet?

Let me know what your thoughts are on the above, and thanks to both of you so far!

EDIT 2: I think with the above changes the total is ~£623 (?)

[eradicator]

Very quick answer:
- Yea, RAM.
- I have no clue about the actual differences between i3/5/7, just a vague idea that they vary somwhat (how much?) in speed even at the same "GHZ".
- Be careful not to confuse the normal frequenzy GHZ with "turbo boost" numbers. Turbo boost is what you want, because that's the relevant single-thread-performance number. E.g. my laptop is labled "2.4GHZ" but can do 3.2GHZ with turbo boost.
- The Keyboard/Mouse/Headphone recommendations on reddit are waaay over the target. You can get a decent keyboard and mouse for <10€ each if you don't buy "gamer hardware" with unnessecary stuff like background light etcpp. Ask google for insider tips or look for standard "office hardware".
- Headset vs Speaker is a pretty important consideration you need to make. You can get pretty cheap things for both (say <20€) if you lower your expectations. For headsets the "Superlux HD681" (20€) has been said to sound as good as the average 150€ headset , but i've never used one.
- Oh, and ofc there's the difference Headphone (no mic) and Headset (built-in microphone). A headphone + stand alone mic is usually cheaper but can be more bulky to use / ppl might complain that the mic captures too much enviromental noise.

[je11693]

Very quick answer:
- Yea, RAM.
- I have no clue about the actual differences between i3/5/7, just a vague idea that they vary somwhat (how much?) in speed even at the same "GHZ".
- Be careful not to confuse the normal frequenzy GHZ with "turbo boost" numbers. Turbo boost is what you want, because that's the relevant single-thread-performance number. E.g. my laptop is labled "2.4GHZ" but can do 3.2GHZ with turbo boost.
- The Keyboard/Mouse/Headphone recommendations on reddit are waaay over the target. You can get a decent keyboard and mouse for <10€ each if you don't buy "gamer hardware" with unnessecary stuff like background light etcpp. Ask google for insider tips or look for standard "office hardware".
- Headset vs Speaker is a pretty important consideration you need to make. You can get pretty cheap things for both (say <20€) if you lower your expectations. For headsets the "Superlux HD681" (20€) has been said to sound as good as the average 150€ headset , but i've never used one.
- Oh, and ofc there's the difference Headphone (no mic) and Headset (built-in microphone). A headphone + stand alone mic is usually cheaper but can be more bulky to use / ppl might complain that the mic captures too much enviromental noise.

I only see 2.8GHz on the Amazon page (unsure how to check what is the boost number for that processor). Is "turbo boosting" the same as overclocking? How do you do it, or does it do it automatically if you are using less cores?

Agreed on the keyboard/mouse/headphone - switching to Koub's suggestions saves quite a bit (his were £6 and £3 for keyboard and mouse)

I presume if I built the above build it would have a speaker built in already, so no need for a headset? A headset would only be useful for multiplayer I presume.. Do you guys play much online multiplayer Factorio? I would've thought it's quite fun to play with someone else.

[eradicator]

Just take the model number and search it on this page for Intel, it lists "base frequency" and "turbo frequency" (Oh, interesting, i3 seems to not have turbo boost at all). Or just google for "$model_number turbo frequency" or "$model_number specification" or "$model_number wikipedia" etcpp. Turbo boost is a feature of Intel CPUs and not related to overclocking, you don't have to do anything to use it, it's all automatic.

I haven't looked at Koubs link, but desktop PCs generally don't have "built in speakers", they're prerepherial hardware just like mouse/keyboard etc. Though they're not pc specific, you can use your hifi system, your tv, etc, or maybe your monitor has built-in speakers. Surely you must have something to listen to music at home ;)?

[je11693]

Just take the model number and search it on this page for Intel, it lists "base frequency" and "turbo frequency" (Oh, interesting, i3 seems to not have turbo boost at all). Or just google for "$model_number turbo frequency" or "$model_number specification" or "$model_number wikipedia" etcpp. Turbo boost is a feature of Intel CPUs and not related to overclocking, you don't have to do anything to use it, it's all automatic.

I haven't looked at Koubs link, but desktop PCs generally don't have "built in speakers", they're prerepherial hardware just like mouse/keyboard etc. Though they're not pc specific, you can use your hifi system, your tv, etc, or maybe your monitor has built-in speakers. Surely you must have something to listen to music at home ?

Ok, the i5 8400 is 2.8GHz base and 4GHz Max Turbo Frequency. Let's see what Koub's thoughts are on the switches I mentioned...

Ha, yeah my monitor has speakers in it

[Koub]

Lots of posting
Sorry, I was out. I have guests at home, so I'll try to aswwer to what I can.

1st, when comparing i3 vs i5, the frequency is not the only thing to warch : i5 has more cache usually (something like 9 MB vs 6 MB iirc). This has a substancial effect on game performance. Also, I think i5 has better memory bandwidth than i3, and i5 has turbo frequency that allows a single core to run faster as long as it doesn't overheat (which it will not do, with the adequate cooling). i3 only runs stock frequency.
i5-8400 is significatively superior to i3-8100 (but at higher price). Ah yeah 8400 is fine too, sorry, I went too quickly this morning with my 8500.

As you're more into RTS, processor performance is somehow more important than GPO.
Second : DDR4 3000 is a good choice. The reason why I chose 1x8GB is because I'd expect a second ram stick a pair of months later, to get to 16 : today, 8 is kinda too low, you'll quickly feel cramped.

Third : PSU efficiency can be important or less, depending on how much you play : You'll pay more a gold PSU, but will spend more every month to power a bronze one. If I refer to this graph :

You'll use 16 more watts to power a 250 W machine with a bronze 500W PSU than with a gold one. if you play let's say 3 hours a day 210 days per year, that'll be 10kWh (only). When I had less work, 10-ish years ago, I used to play around 60 hours a week, 350 days per year, so about 47 kWh difference. In UK, I think the electricity costs around 0.15£ pers kWh. it seemn not a lot, but year after year, it adds up.
Oh and the peak efficiency is at 50% load, so the further you are from 50% load, the more you waste. I think your computer should be around 250 W at full load.

Motherboard ... well you don't need too much fancy motherboard, just one that supports your hardware (especially the CPU, and the memory if you get DDR4 3000). But if you have more hardware, it can be troublesome. I had a problem with my last motherboard : I lacked ... SATA slots (I had only 6, and needed 8) : stupid me ^^.

I'm off, my guests still wait for me :p

[Zanthra]

As far as RAM is concerned, the i3, i5, and i7 CPUs have pins for 2 banks of 2 modules each wired to a different controller. Most motherboards have the 4 slots. Starting at 2x4 and expanding to 4x4 or 2x4+2x8 gives you the dual channel now and in the future, plus the flexibility of keeping dual channel while mixing sizes as long as each channel controls the same total. It would only make sense to go with a 1x8 if the motherboard you are purchasing only has 2 RAM slots or if you can get it significantly cheaper.

[eradicator]

DDR4 3000 is a good choice.

Only if it's cheaper. According to specs i5 only supports DDR4-2666.
Explanation for op: 2666/3000 is the Mhz speed of the RAM modules. This is a maximum speed designation, you can use 3000 RAM with a processor that only supports 2666 just fine, but it will simply run as if it was 2666 RAM.

Also btw keep the hidden shipment costs in mind if you order at a lot of different shops. I.e. if the "cheapest" offer tells you to order at 5 different shops but each shop takes 5€ for shipping... ;).

[Koub]

DDR4 3000 is a good choice.

Only if it's cheaper. According to specs i5 only supports DDR4-2666.

Actually, that's the official support by Intel. In reality, you can set your RAM to work at 3GHz in your BIOS settings, and it will work. At least, never heard of a case where it didn't.
You can find here an exemple of what you can expect from DDR4 3000 : https://techreport.com/review/31179/int ... eviewed/11
BTW, il will significatively depend on the game engine, so you won't get exactly this benefit in every situation.

[je11693]

DDR4 3000 is a good choice.

Only if it's cheaper. According to specs i5 only supports DDR4-2666.

Actually, that's the official support by Intel. In reality, you can set your RAM to work at 3GHz in your BIOS settings, and it will work. At least, never heard of a case where it didn't.
You can find here an exemple of what you can expect from DDR4 3000 : https://techreport.com/review/31179/int ... eviewed/11
BTW, il will significatively depend on the game engine, so you won't get exactly this benefit in every situation.

DDR4 3000 is only ~£8 more than DDR4 2666 so seems like the 3000 would be better even if I only end up using 2666 for most of the time - would the difference between 2666 and 3000 make a difference between whether I can run a mega base or not? (EDIT: I presume the RAM I put in the build list has the required speed/latency etc. to run a megabase!)

One other thing, the 1050Ti spec says the memory type is GDDR5. I presume that will not impact use of the RAM (DDR4)?

[eradicator]

DDR4 3000 is a good choice.

Only if it's cheaper. According to specs i5 only supports DDR4-2666.

Actually, that's the official support by Intel. In reality, you can set your RAM to work at 3GHz in your BIOS settings, and it will work. At least, never heard of a case where it didn't.
You can find here an exemple of what you can expect from DDR4 3000 : https://techreport.com/review/31179/int ... eviewed/11
BTW, il will significatively depend on the game engine, so you won't get exactly this benefit in every situation.

Eh. Now i'm confused. And my googlefoo doesn't find anything. The memory controller is on the CPU, so that would imply overclocking the memory controller, wouldn't it? Given that there's so many DDR4-3000 on sale even though it's nowhere to be found in the specs i guess it's generally fine, but i don't get why they don't list it then. And yea...need to be extra careful then to chose a motherboard that supports DDR4-3000 or better.

would the difference between 2666 and 3000 make a difference between whether I can run a mega base or not? (EDIT: I presume the RAM I put in the build list has the required speed/latency etc. to run a megabase!)

There's no fixed "if you don't have x you can't do y" in factorio. There isn't even a single definition for "megabase" though it's often assumed to be "more than 1000SPM". The real question is: "How fast can i run a base?". I.e. the faster the system you own the bigger factories you can build while still running at 100% game speed. But beyond that it won't stop working or start stuttering like first person shooters. Instead factorio gradually becomes more and more of a "slow motion" video the further you go over the 100% limit of your system. E.g. If a system can just barely run 1KSPM at 100% then running a 2KSPM factory on that same system will instead run at 50% speed (very roughly speaking).
So if you chose the 2666 RAM it might run 10% slower (just a random number, not based on facts) but it'll still run as such. After Koubs above post i'd go for the 3000 though if it's only 8£ difference.

One other thing, the 1050Ti spec says the memory type is GDDR5. I presume that will not impact use of the RAM (DDR4)?

Nah, G(raphics)DDR is just the name for the stuff mounted on the graphics card. You don't need to worry about that, all modern cards have GDDR5.

[je11693]

DDR4 3000 is a good choice.

Only if it's cheaper. According to specs i5 only supports DDR4-2666.

Actually, that's the official support by Intel. In reality, you can set your RAM to work at 3GHz in your BIOS settings, and it will work. At least, never heard of a case where it didn't.
You can find here an exemple of what you can expect from DDR4 3000 : https://techreport.com/review/31179/int ... eviewed/11
BTW, il will significatively depend on the game engine, so you won't get exactly this benefit in every situation.

Eh. Now i'm confused. And my googlefoo doesn't find anything. The memory controller is on the CPU, so that would imply overclocking the memory controller, wouldn't it? Given that there's so many DDR4-3000 on sale even though it's nowhere to be found in the specs i guess it's generally fine, but i don't get why they don't list it then. And yea...need to be extra careful then to chose a motherboard that supports DDR4-3000 or better.

would the difference between 2666 and 3000 make a difference between whether I can run a mega base or not? (EDIT: I presume the RAM I put in the build list has the required speed/latency etc. to run a megabase!)

There's no fixed "if you don't have x you can't do y" in factorio. There isn't even a single definition for "megabase" though it's often assumed to be "more than 1000SPM". The real question is: "How fast can i run a base?". I.e. the faster the system you own the bigger factories you can build while still running at 100% game speed. But beyond that it won't stop working or start stuttering like first person shooters. Instead factorio gradually becomes more and more of a "slow motion" video the further you go over the 100% limit of your system. E.g. If a system can just barely run 1KSPM at 100% then running a 2KSPM factory on that same system will instead run at 50% speed (very roughly speaking).
So if you chose the 2666 RAM it might run 10% slower (just a random number, not based on facts) but it'll still run as such. After Koubs above post i'd go for the 3000 though if it's only 8£ difference.

One other thing, the 1050Ti spec says the memory type is GDDR5. I presume that will not impact use of the RAM (DDR4)?

Nah, G(raphics)DDR is just the name for the stuff mounted on the graphics card. You don't need to worry about that, all modern cards have GDDR5.

Got ya. And thanks for the heads up on RAM/Motherboard compatibility, it looks like that motherboard wouldn't be suitable.. At this link, on the left side, it says "Memory Type DDR4-2133 / 2400 / 2666". So I will either need to get 2666 RAM or a different motherboard?

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/PgQ ... b360m-ds3h

[Koub]

Got ya. And thanks for the heads up on RAM/Motherboard compatibility, it looks like that motherboard wouldn't be suitable.. At this link, on the left side, it says "Memory Type DDR4-2133 / 2400 / 2666". So I will either need to get 2666 RAM or a different motherboard?

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/PgQ ... b360m-ds3h

Yaah exactly. Sorry for not thinking to warn you. I do ckeck when I mount a computer for myself, but then I don't have budget issues (or if I have, I just wait to have enough for my config), so I can always swap for a slightly more expensive motherboard if needed ^^.

Factorio uses your video card mainly for VRAM, not for its GPU. So you don't need a fancy video card for Factorio. However, if you're into Assassin's Creed and other heavy 3D dames, then you'll need more than just VRAM.

[je11693]

Got ya. And thanks for the heads up on RAM/Motherboard compatibility, it looks like that motherboard wouldn't be suitable.. At this link, on the left side, it says "Memory Type DDR4-2133 / 2400 / 2666". So I will either need to get 2666 RAM or a different motherboard?

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/PgQ ... b360m-ds3h

Yaah exactly. Sorry for not thinking to warn you. I do ckeck when I mount a computer for myself, but then I don't have budget issues (or if I have, I just wait to have enough for my config), so I can always swap for a slightly more expensive motherboard if needed ^^.

Factorio uses your video card mainly for VRAM, not for its GPU. So you don't need a fancy video card for Factorio. However, if you're into Assassin's Creed and other heavy 3D dames, then you'll need more than just VRAM.

Can you suggest a recommendation for a motherboard that would be compatible with DDR4 3000 RAM for the same or less cost than the one in my original list?

Is there a minimum wattage I will need for my power supply? (gold or bronze)

[eradicator]

Is there a minimum wattage I will need for my power supply? (gold or bronze)

I don't even know how to calculate that so i'll leave it to Koub :p. I just googled "what happens if my power supply is too weak" and the results are not...encouraging. Ranges from fire due to overheating to damaging other components etcpp. One comment also mentioned that during it's lifetime the capacity of a PSU will slowly decline, though didn't say how much. Batteries are said to go down to 80% after 1-2 years, so it's probably not worse than that. But yea, just saying you shouldn't by too stingy (is that the right word? it's meant to mean "trying to save too much money on") on the PSU. If you maybe want to add a new harddrive after a few years (for storing games, photoes whatever) you also want spare power for that.

[Jap2.0]

Is there a minimum wattage I will need for my power supply? (gold or bronze)

What parts have you decided on using and do you have any plans to overclock or add components?

[je11693]

Is there a minimum wattage I will need for my power supply? (gold or bronze)

What parts have you decided on using and do you have any plans to overclock or add components?

I think something along the lines of the following:

Intel - Core i5-8400 2.8GHz 6-Core Processor
Cooler Master - Hyper T2 54.8 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler
Motherboard Gigabyte - B360M DS3H Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard
Memory Corsair - Vengeance LPX 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Kingston - A400 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive
Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive
MSI - GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4GB Video Card
BitFenix - Nova ATX Mid Tower Case (potentially switching this for a Fractal Design Focus G Mini Window Micro-ATX Case, or if there is a better one you know of?)
Corsair - CXM (2015) 450W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply
Zalman - ZM-K300M Wired Gaming Keyboard
Genius - DX 110 Wired Optical Mouse

We've figured out the motherboard will not work with the DDR4-3000 RAM, so I need to find a different motherboard that will work for the same/less price. Also, maybe swapping a gold PSU for the bronze, but need to know how much wattage I will need.

If you have any suggestions on the motherboard, or any of the rest of it, I would be keen to hear them. No plans to overclock at the moment (mostly because I'm not sure what exactly that entails or if it's even necessary).

EDIT: I should say, my original budget was ~£500-600, but the above comes in ~£690, so a bit higher than I was hoping.

[eradicator]

Btw, i noticed that my favourite comparison site does have a UK version now. Filtered for mainboards that can do high RAM clocks and the cheapest one is the Gigabyte Z370P D3 (92£ @amazon) which is the same board Koub had in his original link.

@Budget: btw, is that budget with or without VAT? Because on reddit you said it's without, and here you seem to imply with.