[MOD 0.17.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by orzelek » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:28 pm

TheSAguy wrote:
orzelek wrote:Two fast comments:
1. Those biters/spitters might be to big - they get pixellated. Maybe scaling option to make increase smaller.

I'm currently scaling from 0.25 to 2. The Vanilla behemoth biter is at 1.2
I guess I could reduce my scaling, maybe to 1.5. Anyone have high def biter graphics ?!
orzelek wrote: 2. They fact that you added option for every spawner... that will be a pain to implement in RSO :(
Sorry..... create a function and call it 5x :lol:
It's not about amount of them. It's more about the fact that they can be separately enabled and also vanilla ones disabled (this might also brake bob's enemies mod.. might want to check that). I think only way to do this right now is to use your mod settings to see whats enabled. Might be a good use for remote interface for RSO since then your mod would make the decisions but that needs to be added first.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:48 am

orzelek wrote: It's not about amount of them. It's more about the fact that they can be separately enabled and also vanilla ones disabled (this might also brake bob's enemies mod.. might want to check that).
Bob's and Rampant add their own Spawners and don't do anything with vanilla. MoreBiters and NE Enemies, prior to V9, manipulated the Vanilla spawner.
orzelek wrote: I think only way to do this right now is to use your mod settings to see whats enabled. Might be a good use for remote interface for RSO since then your mod would make the decisions but that needs to be added first.
Sound like a plan to me.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by wodzu93 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:03 am

Hello!

Can you PLEASE add some damage to green spitters projectile (that one creating more biters)? When they get stuck on a tree, they start to shoot at it to destroy it, but projectile itself does no damage, and spawned biters don't attack it either. This creates a situation where spitter just sits there, infinitely producing biters until interrupted. I have to do map-wide sweeps and nuke these bastards whenever radars spot them, before these swarms grow too large and kill UPS.
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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:56 pm

wodzu93 wrote:Hello!

Can you PLEASE add some damage to green spitters projectile (that one creating more biters)? When they get stuck on a tree, they start to shoot at it to destroy it, but projectile itself does no damage, and spawned biters don't attack it either. This creates a situation where spitter just sits there, infinitely producing biters until interrupted. I have to do map-wide sweeps and nuke these bastards whenever radars spot them, before these swarms grow too large and kill UPS.
Thanks for letting me know.
I've just released 9.0.5, It removes trees in the area of spawned breeders now. Hopefully that should fix the issue.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by RubedoNoir » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:52 am

Anyone else getting a 404 error from the mod portal on NE: Enemies?

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:40 pm

RubedoNoir wrote:Anyone else getting a 404 error from the mod portal on NE: Enemies?
Reposted

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by wodzu93 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:26 pm

Played over 3 hours since the version 9.0.5 has been uploaded. Infinite spawning issue seems to be fixed, no more UPS drops, can't spot any signs on radars either.

I'm loving new enemies, my end-game defences with 7+ infinite damage researches have trouble with large groups, had to reinforce several spots. Nice job on the mod!
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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by wodzu93 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:26 pm

Holy shit, I have to report this one. My north-west perimeter just got steamrolled by the biggest attack I've seen in Factorio yet. NE + Rampant. Not even my 5 layers of turrets could stop this avalanche.
Screen 1.png
Aliens at the gates!
Screen 1.png (1.34 MiB) Viewed 1283 times
Few seconds after alert rang.
Screen 2.png
Nests are too close.
Screen 2.png (662.01 KiB) Viewed 1283 times
Notice 4 nest groups very close together.
Screen 3.png
Defences have failed!
Screen 3.png (1.65 MiB) Viewed 1283 times
There goes my defensive line.
Screen 4.png
Overview of the map.
Screen 4.png (260.18 KiB) Viewed 1283 times
My map and factory overview. In the heli now, time to nuke those buggers back!
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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:27 am

LOL,
I'd like to get a save and your mod settings file.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by wodzu93 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:25 am

Ok, here you go.
Game.zip
Save file. 46MB
(46.28 MiB) Downloaded 25 times
mod-settings.zip
Mod settings file.
(16.29 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
random_things_1.0.0.zip
My private mod, not on Factorio portal.
(108.37 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
Note, there may be a crash with Nauvis Day, if it does crash, open its zip file and add a nil check where error is (data-updates.lua line 115).

Code: Select all

if obj.emissions_per_tick then
   obj.emissions_per_tick = obj.emissions_per_tick*pollutionScale*firePollutionScale
end
When you load a save, you will be close to that attack site in a helicopter, armed with 400 uranium rounds and 3 nukes. As long as you stay out of biters melee attack range, you will be fine.
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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by JFS » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:32 pm

Hi,

I really like this mod and the challenge it provides. But I think compared to the other enemy types in the mod, which are mostly challenging but fun and fair, the unit-launcher spitters in particular are overpowered:
  1. Creating a potentially unlimited number of new enemies is already a really powerful ability, especially as the spitter tends to stay in the back line, so it is less likely to draw turret aggro, able to keep creating new enemies throughout the engagement.
  2. It creates breeder biters, which then multiply, meaning a few unit-launcher spitters in the back line can quickly create a massive number of new biters for the front line.
  3. Worst of all, the breeder biters it launches have high phys res, meaning that early-mid game defenses, which are mainly physical, are even less able to deal with them.
  4. And it can appear at a relatively early Evo level, potentially way before the player can maintain and supply laser or flamethrower defenses (for non-physical damage). Furthermore, players who install enemy mods that add a challenge (like this mod) might also be playing with expensive or harder recipes, or increased tech costs, meaning that I don't think one should assume that around 20% Evo level a player already has fully operational laser defenses.
The breeder biters themselves on their own are a fair challenge I think, even with the high physical res. It encourages more varied defenses, which is fine. But what I think is really problematic is an unlimited number of breeder biters getting created mid-fight by the unit-launcher spitters.

And a unit-launcher enemy is a fun idea too, the problem I think is just that it launches breeder biters.

So, a suggestion:

Simply change unit-launcher spitters and unit-launcher worms to create fast biters instead of breeder biters. Launching fast biters means that a player can't kite/dodge as effectively, which I think is a fine ability for a unit-launcher attack: difficult but not unfair like creating a huge number of high phys res biters would be. And it keeps the theme: Green spitters create green biters (not blue ones for some reason).

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:22 am

JFS wrote:Hi,

I really like this mod and the challenge it provides. But I think compared to the other enemy types in the mod, which are mostly challenging but fun and fair, the unit-launcher spitters in particular are overpowered:
  1. Creating a potentially unlimited number of new enemies is already a really powerful ability, especially as the spitter tends to stay in the back line, so it is less likely to draw turret aggro, able to keep creating new enemies throughout the engagement.
  2. It creates breeder biters, which then multiply, meaning a few unit-launcher spitters in the back line can quickly create a massive number of new biters for the front line.
  3. Worst of all, the breeder biters it launches have high phys res, meaning that early-mid game defenses, which are mainly physical, are even less able to deal with them.
  4. And it can appear at a relatively early Evo level, potentially way before the player can maintain and supply laser or flamethrower defenses (for non-physical damage). Furthermore, players who install enemy mods that add a challenge (like this mod) might also be playing with expensive or harder recipes, or increased tech costs, meaning that I don't think one should assume that around 20% Evo level a player already has fully operational laser defenses.
The breeder biters themselves on their own are a fair challenge I think, even with the high physical res. It encourages more varied defenses, which is fine. But what I think is really problematic is an unlimited number of breeder biters getting created mid-fight by the unit-launcher spitters.

And a unit-launcher enemy is a fun idea too, the problem I think is just that it launches breeder biters.

So, a suggestion:

Simply change unit-launcher spitters and unit-launcher worms to create fast biters instead of breeder biters. Launching fast biters means that a player can't kite/dodge as effectively, which I think is a fine ability for a unit-launcher attack: difficult but not unfair like creating a huge number of high phys res biters would be. And it keeps the theme: Green spitters create green biters (not blue ones for some reason).
Hey JFS,

Thanks for the feedback. It makes sense. I'll update this next week.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by wodzu93 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:19 am

I've noticed several expansion groups that don't build their nests. Don't know if that's because of evolution stage (Peaceful?), or because few spitters are stuck shooting at trees.
Stranglers.png
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Stranglers 2.png
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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheBrain0110 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:58 am

I've also been noticing in my latest game that there doesn't seem to be much, if any expansion going on. There are occasional groups of biters that just mill about doing nothing, but also never go entirely inactive like most do when out of activation range.

I'm playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies and RSO, among a bunch of other non-related mods. Previous playthroughs with the same mod set seem to have had expansion fine, I'm not sure what's different this time. It could also be Rampant's fault, hard to tell.

I do see an occasional little group of worms I don't remember seeing before, but never any new spawners.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by JFS » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:15 am

TheBrain0110 wrote:I've also been noticing in my latest game that there doesn't seem to be much, if any expansion going on.

I'm playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies and RSO, among a bunch of other non-related mods.

never any new spawners.
For what it's worth, I'm also playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies (+ MoreBiters, EMP Biters, Big Monsters, and a bunch of non-related), but without RSO, and they've definitely expanded several times near my base. So it might have to do with RSO.

There's a quote in the first post under Compatibility, maybe it still applies:
TheSAguy wrote:RSO users, please note that RSO significantly reduced started biters and expansion seems very slow. More info here

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 am

JFS wrote:
TheBrain0110 wrote:I've also been noticing in my latest game that there doesn't seem to be much, if any expansion going on.

I'm playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies and RSO, among a bunch of other non-related mods.

never any new spawners.
For what it's worth, I'm also playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies (+ MoreBiters, EMP Biters, Big Monsters, and a bunch of non-related), but without RSO, and they've definitely expanded several times near my base. So it might have to do with RSO.

There's a quote in the first post under Compatibility, maybe it still applies:
TheSAguy wrote:RSO users, please note that RSO significantly reduced started biters and expansion seems very slow. More info here
Between RSO and Rampant and NE Expansion there might be something going on. It's really hard to say.
Rampant create 'dead' zones. Create''s raiding parties. NE Expansion has 'Phases', so maybe they were on their way, and then the phase changed to peaceful and thus non-expanding.
RSO does something, thought might just be in the beginning.

I don't know how anyone can diagnose this though. There is just a lot going on.
I know that Rampant fixed a bug that stopped attacks recently in endgame. I was hoping that would fix this, but it seems like it's still going on.

It might be a blessing though. Lot to keep one busy already.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by orzelek » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:17 am

RSO reduces amount of bases - it migth affect amount of expansion since enemies will also expand in areas between bases instead only towards your base.
Additionally after recent update to with more enemy base types RSO doesn't spawn all of those properly. I need to redo some of base spawning code when I have some time.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:59 pm

TheSAguy wrote:
JFS wrote:Hi,

I really like this mod and the challenge it provides. But I think compared to the other enemy types in the mod, which are mostly challenging but fun and fair, the unit-launcher spitters in particular are overpowered:
  1. Creating a potentially unlimited number of new enemies is already a really powerful ability, especially as the spitter tends to stay in the back line, so it is less likely to draw turret aggro, able to keep creating new enemies throughout the engagement.
  2. It creates breeder biters, which then multiply, meaning a few unit-launcher spitters in the back line can quickly create a massive number of new biters for the front line.
  3. Worst of all, the breeder biters it launches have high phys res, meaning that early-mid game defenses, which are mainly physical, are even less able to deal with them.
  4. And it can appear at a relatively early Evo level, potentially way before the player can maintain and supply laser or flamethrower defenses (for non-physical damage). Furthermore, players who install enemy mods that add a challenge (like this mod) might also be playing with expensive or harder recipes, or increased tech costs, meaning that I don't think one should assume that around 20% Evo level a player already has fully operational laser defenses.
The breeder biters themselves on their own are a fair challenge I think, even with the high physical res. It encourages more varied defenses, which is fine. But what I think is really problematic is an unlimited number of breeder biters getting created mid-fight by the unit-launcher spitters.

And a unit-launcher enemy is a fun idea too, the problem I think is just that it launches breeder biters.

So, a suggestion:

Simply change unit-launcher spitters and unit-launcher worms to create fast biters instead of breeder biters. Launching fast biters means that a player can't kite/dodge as effectively, which I think is a fine ability for a unit-launcher attack: difficult but not unfair like creating a huge number of high phys res biters would be. And it keeps the theme: Green spitters create green biters (not blue ones for some reason).
Hey JFS,

Thanks for the feedback. It makes sense. I'll update this next week.
Implemented in 9.0.6. Thanks.

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheBrain0110 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:27 pm

TheSAguy wrote:
JFS wrote:
TheBrain0110 wrote:I've also been noticing in my latest game that there doesn't seem to be much, if any expansion going on.

I'm playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies and RSO, among a bunch of other non-related mods.

never any new spawners.
For what it's worth, I'm also playing with NE, Rampant, Bob's Enemies (+ MoreBiters, EMP Biters, Big Monsters, and a bunch of non-related), but without RSO, and they've definitely expanded several times near my base. So it might have to do with RSO.

There's a quote in the first post under Compatibility, maybe it still applies:
TheSAguy wrote:RSO users, please note that RSO significantly reduced started biters and expansion seems very slow. More info here
Between RSO and Rampant and NE Expansion there might be something going on. It's really hard to say.
Rampant create 'dead' zones. Create''s raiding parties. NE Expansion has 'Phases', so maybe they were on their way, and then the phase changed to peaceful and thus non-expanding.
RSO does something, thought might just be in the beginning.

I don't know how anyone can diagnose this though. There is just a lot going on.
I know that Rampant fixed a bug that stopped attacks recently in endgame. I was hoping that would fix this, but it seems like it's still going on.

It might be a blessing though. Lot to keep one busy already.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot going on between the various mods that makes it hard to diagnose, but I figured I'd throw it out there to see what turns up.

So I went and killed a few of the groups that were "stuck" milling about, and then some other groups appeared and started moving around, and then I lost track of them, and then some more worms appeared in various places. Still no spawners tho.

Also, there were a couple occasions where a raiding party would appear seemingly out of nowhere behind my defensive line and start trashing stuff. Then if I reload an autosave from a couple minutes back, the attack never happens the second time around. I'm fairly sure that one is on Rampant again, but I figured I'd mention it anyway...

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Re: [MOD 0.16.x] Natural Evolution - All things Alien!

Post by TheSAguy » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:51 pm

wodzu93 wrote:Ok, here you go.
Game.zip
mod-settings.zip
random_things_1.0.0.zip
Note, there may be a crash with Nauvis Day, if it does crash, open its zip file and add a nil check where error is (data-updates.lua line 115).

Code: Select all

if obj.emissions_per_tick then
   obj.emissions_per_tick = obj.emissions_per_tick*pollutionScale*firePollutionScale
end
When you load a save, you will be close to that attack site in a helicopter, armed with 400 uranium rounds and 3 nukes. As long as you stay out of biters melee attack range, you will be fine.
Very nice base wodzu93!
I'm actually glad you were overrun. That means the mod worked :lol:
You're playing at difficulty 1. Next time try going up :D

I was wondering how you farmed all the Alien Artifacts to feed the Terraforming Stations?
I see they reduced a whopping 68% overall.

With all that water channels, I think that the Alien Control Stations would also be very powerful.

Later.

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