Friday Facts #249 - Dead end exploration

[Lilly]

an infinite number of books

• Books can now also store [...] every item in the game.

So... infinite inventory?

It is based on proposal 4, where "the quickbar is just an action bar idea explained in the FFF-191". So no infinite inventory, only infinite actions. Would be fun though, as those books are shared between games...

[factoriouzr]

I like proposal 4.

However I would also like to see a way to have a private and public section in the blueprint library. For blueprints I want to share in multiplayer and blueprints I don't. For eg. experimental blueprints or ones I keep changing. I don't want to have to explain all the time, take this and this book, but avoid these other ones.

Also blueprint editing should also be improved. eg. zooming in and out of a blueprint in edit mode, actually building (adding more belts factories etc) while in blueprint edit mode.

Another huge headache is updating blueprints currently with their icons and names. It's to the point where I really dislike and really try to avoid updating my existing blueprints because I have to re-select all 4 icons and the name I gave my blueprint every time I retake it. There must be a feature to update a blueprint by just taking an existing blueprint, highlighting the new area and keeping the icons and names of the blueprints.

I like the idea of sharing the quickbar as every game I start, the first thing I do is reserve the slots for the items I want. Though how will this work with the second toolbar research? I propose that this research is eliminated and you just start with 2 slots (this should be configurable in options to show 1, 2 or more quickbars). Ie. Either mods should still be able to make more quickbars or even better, just have an option to set how many quick bars you want, between 1-5 for eg.

As for the limit of 10 bars. I think I will probably be ok with that for basic games. However, I suggest you have pages of 10 quickbars. For eg. you can add and remove your own pages. Lets say you name your first page of 10 quickbars "default". Then you decide you add another page of 10 quickbars and called it "modded 1", then another "having fun", "experiments" etc. I think it's really important to allow unlimited pages of 10 quickbars because if it's going to be shared across games, that won't work well for modded vs vanilla games. Especially when you get into the larger mods and playing different games with different sets of mods. I think we need unlimited pages of quickbars and the ability to name them.

You also have to consider what will happen when you load a different save when the quickbars are shared. Personally I really like the idea of sharing quickbars across games, but what if you rename the page, or you change the slots? Then when you load your other save, you lose your context of what you were doing, working on, what the key items were etc. I suggest sharing quickbars, but also having a page of 10 quickbars named "save game" or something like that, that will always be saved with the game. The rest will all be shared.

I also like the copy paste feature, however I much more prefer to use an existing blueprint in a specific spot in my quickbar and constantly clear it and take a temporary blueprint and paste it down. This blueprint is my copy/paste blueprint, or more precisely a temporary blueprint. It has several advantages. It is clickable with mouse, it's always in a specific place, no keyboard shortcut needed (though I use keyboard shortcuts a lot, in this game), it has an icon that's visible and helps identify what the last blueprint was. I also always keep a deconstruction planner, and another deconstruction planner only for trees on my quickbar. I also have about 4 blueprint books always on my quickbar. So that's about 7 blueprints/books on my quickbar at all times.

Also with this new always linking feature with the blueprint library (btw I have been asking for this for a while, so I support the change), there has to be custom categories added to the blueprint library that can be user created. For eg. I want my "Main Blueprints" category which are my top blueprints, but I also want to create at least one more category for "Temp Blueprints" that are for things such as above with the copy/paste. I don't want to clutter my main blueprints with temporary stuff. If I can at least identify the temporary ones, I can easily delete all of them or ignore the category completely. Also I would like a "Public" blueprint category for MP games. The way I see this, is if you allow us to create whatever categories we want, then just add a checkbox beside the blueprint category name to make them public in MP games.

Thanks

[factoriouzr]

Am I the only one disappointed this was about blueprints and not exploration? Glad this is being addressed but now all I can think about is how much I want expanding and exploration to be work on...

I really want the blueprint features. I have wanted them for along time and made suggestions like the ones being proposed, so I'm not disappointed, but now that you mention it, the title did get me excited about having things to actually discover and a reason to explore the map. I would also love the exploration aspects to be improved along with more varieties, more interesting, smarter and harder biters (customizable at game creation).

[factoriouzr]

There will be a way to do copy-paste quickly without having to create a blueprint

ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good change, but I think I will still use a dummy blueprint at a certain quickbar slot. Reasons: It has an icon to be easily identifiable even if not 100% representative, is always at a certain hotbar slot, is accessible via mouse. I find it easy already to clear a blueprint.

[factoriouzr]

The blueprint books are a pain half the time I pick up a blueprint to use it I take it out of the book.

I would like an easier way of editing blueprints though, especially if I want to make one with items I don't yet have. though the hot-bar only idea makes it hard to share them with other players in a MP game.

I agree. We also need factories to be set up properly when placed from blueprints for items that you don't have the research for. The factory should have the un-researched item set on it, just not producing it because it's not researched. I'm tired of having to constantly place down the same blueprint over and over on top of the last location I placed the blueprint just to update factories. The limitation really limits the use of blueprints when you can't even trust that non-researched items will be placed down for factories.

[factoriouzr]

Don't do anything.

Linked blueprints assumes that you want blueprints to auto update. There are save to save differences where I don't want that to happen.

The 4 options are frankly not well thought out with regards to the blueprint ecosystem and how they are actually used in game. You are much better off changing nothing.

I agree. Sometimes I don't want blueprints to update the original. This can be solved two ways though. If you are set on making all blueprints linked, I'm good with that solution as long as you allow copying blueprints to another category (see my previous posts) in the blueprint library and then you only use the copied blueprint and you don't care if it's updated. This requires that blueprints in the library can't link to each other, only quickbar slots will link to the library.

Another way to solve this is just to put a checkbox on blueprints in the library if you want them to be linked, or a prompt when you take a blueprint out of the library to say if you want it to be linked or not. Then obviously a visual indicator on the blueprint (eg. a bar or border of a certain colour) to indicate if that blueprint is linked or not.

[WarpZone]

Why not implement the new system over the top of the old system? By which I mean, implement one or more of proposals 1-4, but allow the player to "print" individual blueprints or books from the global system into item form, which would then be used normally, and could later be "scanned" back into the global system. This solves all of the problems like players losing chests of blueprint books, and even sort of almost addresses the "30 hotbars of books not being enough" problem if a player is crazy enough to make a dedicated "Blueprint World" map.

In general, my thinking is, if different blueprint implementations have different strengths and weaknesses, you could cover your bases by implementing more than one, and giving the player easy methods to switch between them. Legacy support for item-based blueprints is only one such possible solution, and might be the easiest to implement, since it kinda already exists.

[glowack2]

Looking forward to any and all blueprint improvements you make!

I'm OK with blueprints-as-items going away, and the FFF-191 "quickbar is just an action bar" approach also seems like the right move to me.

To the specific options mentioned in this FFF, #4 is maybe closest, but still feels a bit limiting in the number and organization options of blueprint books you could reasonably have if that is the ONLY place to store blueprints. Maybe keep the "Select 2 active of 10 available hotbars", since that's an amazing improvement on its own, but have all blueprints just be shortcuts back to your library?


Wishlist (and some random thoughts?) of blueprint improvements:

• #1 by far: Belt/pipe content labels in blueprints stored with the blueprints (and by extension, visible in the game as part of the alt view) ... There is nothing more annoying when working with blueprints than looking at a blueprint and trying to reverse engineer which input belt is copper and which is iron. Independent left/right labels should be enough to cover 99% of uses, and ideally available easily like the selector for a constant combinator just by clicking on a belt. See also viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48907
• More tools to organize the multitude of blueprints one accumulates over time. For example,
  • Blueprint library - collection of blueprint books, e.g. all of the books in "Base-in-a-Book" Tutorial series by Nilaus... including import/export of entire blueprint libraries and maybe some way to view all the books in the library.
  • Chapters? library -> book -> chapter -> blueprint? Starting to get a bit complicated... but maps to "real world" so maybe it wouldn't be too bad? I guess I'm just looking for more ways to handle the multitude of blueprints I've collected already...
  • Tags or labels for blueprints/books to allow arbitrary grouping? Maybe dynamic books based on tags?
• Better sorting options, for example, alphabetic vs manual vs date added/modified
• See more of book and blueprint titles than 10 characters (in the blueprint library)...
• Some way to browse other people's blueprints (i.e. factorioprints.com) in-game, similar to the mod portal (from outside an individual save would be fine), including the ability to check for updates and get updated versions of blueprints. (yeah, this is not small... )

[ekffie]

As a notorious collector of blueprints and a lover of big, gamechanging mods I have some wishes for blueprints which I don't see addressed in any of the new proposals.Here is the list what would be important to me:

1. An infinite library
2. Arrange blueprints and blueprintbooks in folders (and even subfolders) which can be named ( per mod, per user I got them from, per topic)
3. Attach notes - yes I love that mod. I would like to save notes with the print, multiple icon colors would also be welcome.
4. I want all of my blueprints around in every game as even if they don't work because of recipe changes I often get ideas from them
5. I want a button to backup all blueprints or books from my library to txt files on disk with click on one button. Can be in the options menu and please let me choose my folder. Name the files as the prints or give them numbers as there isn't one. and import this folder from disk option would also be welcome, if I ever installed a fresh copy of factorio.
6. As I do like them to be linked to the library, I really fear for them to be easyly permanently deleted. I last sorted Bps to books and then accidently deleted the books through misclick. that was 3 hours work of sorting gone in the blink of an eye. Luckily I did have a backup but I had to sort them again.
7. I would still like to be able to browse the library of my fellow mulitplayers when not playing competitive To me seeing others builds and experimenting with them is the best way to learn..
8. I would like to be able to spawn as many bp as I want and NOT export them to the library - they could have a button when you view them in the editor to export them. Maybe give them another icon border ( and I do like the paper idea!) that you immediatly see which ones are not linked.
9 I would like to place them in the world as items - all placed would loose their link to my library at that moment and become a "hardcopy" for anyone to take and maybe an unlink button If I want to edit it but want also to keep the original.
10 A zoom tool in the editor. Some of my prints are big.
11. Save the new name I entered without having me click on the penicon again, just save it when the editor is closed
12, I would like blueprints if they get copy and paste to have the same keys as ingame c&p from assembler to assembler to chests to...

If ever possible I would like a real bp editor at one point in the future - where you can just paint your build with all machines and recepies which will be in the world.. and when you are ready build the ghost and wait for the future in which the bots will come

Lastly I don't really like the concept of shortcuts to switch between bars per different keys - simply because I have not mastered yet doing that with my steam controller. I am so bad at keyboard mouse that factorio is unplayble for me without it.

Yes Bps are dear to me - please make this a good update

[Impatient]

Having blueprints and blueprint books as items in the inventory originate from a time when blueprinting was a researchable tech. With the current mechanics of Factorio they are imo completely obsolete. I did not think of the possibility of having BPs and BPBs on belts and chets in the game world. The question is, who uses that and when? I know or can think of 2 situations. 1st is the situation when a player wants to show another player the BP to use to build something. "I put a good BP in the box over there." Because the BP library can get very crowded at the moment and it is even for me difficult to find stuff in my own BP lib. Saying: "Find the BP in my library in this and that book with the name xyz/abc" just does not do the same trick. Being able to put a clickable BP-reference into the chat would solve this problem. The 2nd scenario of itemized BPs and BPBs might be some sophisticated mod, which I do not know about.

Seeing it like that I vote for none-itemized BPs. Like suggested in solution #1. This would end the need to deleted BPs cluttering up the inventory and the need to have like 4 belt slots reserved for 3 BP and 1 decon planner, when designing something. A new BP tool bar would take their place.

Furthermore I would like the BP lib to feature the following:
. Long titles in full readable are more important than having icons with pictures in it. Still Icons are very usefull if BPs can be placed in the new BP tool bar.
. Input search field, where I can search all the titles
. Unlimited nestable directories replace the BPBs
. Specific BPs and directories can be copied from other players lib to the own, like it is now.
. - can be copied, pasted and moved within the own lib for the sake of organizing it.
. easy copying of titles and icons

It might be ugly picturing it, but it would be like a file explorer with the additional feature of customizable cions for BPs and dirs.

Other features:
. Like mentioned, BPs and BP directories droppable or sendable to the chat, creating clickable references.
. the BP tool bar would include the BP creatin tool. Clicked, it allows to make the selection in the game world and automatically creates a new BP. When accepted that BP goes to the BP tool bar or is sent to the root dir or a specific dir in the lib.
. An easy way to create and place a BP into a specific dir. This comes to my mind when thinking of the hours I spent designing something. As my design progressed I continually made BPs. Being able to automatically place them into a specific dir would be awesome. A way could be this: A directory can be placed into the BP tool bar. Selecting that dir and then making the selection of the area in the game world with it would create a new BP which is automatically placed in that dir. The BP gets a real world time stamp, so I do not even need to type in an incremental version number of the design (currently i would make BPs and then name them "v1". "v2", ... etc.). When I am finished I just have to take the last BP make a nice icon and store it somewhere in my lib.

[mrvn]

Afaik the blueprint printer mod uses blueprint and blueprint books as items. You stick them into the printer and tell it the position and direction where to blueprint it. In case of books also the blueprint number inside the book. I think it also has something to copy a blueprint book so you can print new printers and populate them automatically with books.

[Lukeception]

I personaly don't like the proposals since all of the want to keep blueprints as items.
Here's my proposal:
- The blueprints are stored in a simple folder structure (like a file on any computer).
- This library is the only way of accessing blueprints
- In the library all folders and blueprints are displayed as a list and and their name is displayed in full. (Just imagine windows explorer or finder, that's what it would look like)
- Simplify or remove the icons of blueprints. At the moment they confuse more than they help
- You could simply press Ctrl+C and get the standard blueprint selection tool just like you do at the moment. This blueprint is not an item and won't be stored in the action bar
- Pressing Ctrl+V will bring up the copied selection to be placed
- (optional) Pressing mabye Ctrl+Shift+V will bring up a history of things I copied

Summary:
- Make the library like any default file explorer (i.e. Windows Explorer) where I can have folders inside folders
- Display names in full (and in a list)
- Make a simple copy/paste system that doesn't store things as blueprints by default (unless I tell it to)

I believe that file explorers and copy/paste systems are nearly identical across al computers because they work and are simple to use and I think the blueprint system could profit from that.

[KingIonTrueLove]

I think proposal 1, or none of them, would be preferable to me. Just fixing the darn blueprint library to be more user-friendly (let us modify blueprints that already exist in there please!) would be a godsend.

I play modded sometimes, and sometimes entirely different sets of mods, so having only 10 bars of potential blueprint books, like in proposal 4, would be quite annoying... UNLESS we could export and import the ENTIRE TEN HOTBARS into a file or something, then I could have a different hotbar setup for each 'modpack'. If that feature is added then I would have no issue with proposal 4

Edit: now that I think about it, all the hotbar settings would probably be in a file anyway, and I can just backup and move copies of that file around personally, but being able to select which 'hotbar set' I want in the game directly would just be easier.

[Camylarde]

I support option 2 and mostly the solutions proposed by

I think proposal 2 is the best option, and that some of it's problems aren't really problems at all.
1) Yes, it will still be linked. Blueprint items will always be linked, no matter where they are or who is holding in
2) See point 1. This works because servers already keep track of the library for connected players, so the blueprint item is just linked to the library of the player it originated from.
3) While there might be multiple identical blueprints in a library, they should not be able to be linked to each other. When a player adds a blueprint to their library, rather than it saving a reference to another blueprint, it creates it's own entry. This would be beneficial as, say a player wants to create variations of a blueprint. They would create a base or a template, save it, make changes and then save again. Each time would create a new blueprint that they could, if needed make changes to without affecting any others.

Also, why not a sort of hybridization between proposal 2 and 4? There's still a library, so you have a practically unlimited number of blueprints/books, but you can only interact with them by putting them onto the quickbar (similar to setting quickbar filters, maybe?) and by doing so "removes" it from the library so there are no duplications or worrying about which is getting updated, or whatever.

with the following addendums by me:
Library is persistent between games, blueprints in toolbar/inventory are linked or unlinked per players choice (unlinked bp can be again linked if the mother bp didn't change meanwhile, othwerwise game informs the player).
I'd prefer if BP picked from library don't go to toolbar/inventory unless player puts it there explicitly, Q kills it.
Linking of BPs shared between players - I'd say unlink on 'other' player pickup, they can create new library entry if they wish to. Problem solved. I even see linking of BPs between players as too gimmicky so no-no please.
Two colours of the blueprints between linked and unlinked. Allow multiple copies of BP in chests/inventory/toolbar, inform player that a BP is already somewhere in the library when putting back for the x>1st time. I do have one BP in three books for the sake of quicker access, would love to have them linked for instance.
There must be a way to make a BP jsut for teh minute use without need to store it or have it anywhere and this solution would keep that option available to players.

I'm also somewhat wary of option 4, the BP is already an action in its own sense, and I personally prefer larger toolbelt rather than sorting through stuff, so (four toolbelts for me) action pages is not prefered solution for me.

Also, the BP editing needs an interactive sandbox that allows everything ingame so that we can edit our BPs, or even build new ones from scratch.

Thanks for taking my view into consideration.

[RnDMonkey]

I envision a system somewhat like a hybrid of Proposal 3 and Proposal 4. In short, we don't currently have a GUI binding for right-clicking on an empty hotbar slot, right? So what about being able to right-click on an empty slot (or an existing blueprint) to bring up a selection dialog that lets you choose a blueprint to populate that slot? As for the blueprint system itself, there need not be items at all. I would think that it makes sense to have multiple "bins" to put blueprints in though. For example with a dropdown box or tabs to select from these types:

• Local: Blueprints created and applicable to current game only - can move/copy to other types by right-clicking on the blueprint in this dialog
• Shared: Blueprints created and applicable to current game but visible to others in multiplayer? Not sure about this category.
• Library: Blueprints created and applicable to any game played with a given account

I feel like this is a very accessible interface concept that can accommodate a good deal of segmentation of blueprint groups while removing inventory clutter.

[factoriouzr]

We really need the following features in the current build of the game (not just the next major release). I'm so tired of working with blueprints especially because they are so hard to update.

Please add the following in the next patch. I don't want to wait for another major release:

*ability to re-take a blueprint without resetting it's description and icons. I'm frequently updating my existing blueprints and I'm really tired of having to re-set their text and icons. I've done it so many times now, that I almost don't even want to update my existing blueprints. I seriously think twice before I decide to update it. This limitation has been there for many version and it's very frustrating to deal with. It really discourages people from using and updating blueprints.

*add the ability to blueprint trains, cargo wagons etc. I really want to play with trains, but every time I do, I'm just immediately put off by it. I made some complex train builds and blueprints in the past and I want to take it further and play with trains more, but setting up filters on cargo wagons, train colours, train inventory, train schedules over and over for every new game, and not to mention for every new ore or supply or other train I put down it just frustrating. Then when I tweak anything in any of the complex train blueprints (trains are not simple at all to do anything remotely more useful then hauling ores), I have to retake the blueprint and then I'm hit with frustration number one (above). Let me be perfectly clear, Issue one above exists regardless of using trains or not and I still want it fixed regardless of trains, but these two systems need lots of work and they work in tandem to make the game not as enjoyable.

*add proper schedule management. I'm so tired of the tedium and manual steps in setting up new trains (especially when they are adding new trains to the same line/schedule). Why do I have to copy paste settings between trains? Why when I change one schedule, I have to update all other manually? Why do I have to hunt for trains to find them to update their settings? Why do they have to be next to each other to copy/paste easily?

*Make blueprints blueprint everything by default. It's so frustrating that taking a blueprint assumes I don't want to blueprint things like schedule names by default. All things that are blueprintable now and in the future should be enabled every time by default. When I update blueprints for eg. I already have to remember the previous description and icons when updating the blueprint. So I manually have to do all that. Then when I place the blueprint somewhere else on the map, it doesn't work. Then I realize it's because it didn't blueprint the stop name. So now I have to remember what the stop name was and update the placed blueprint, then re-take the blueprint again. Now I have to go through the process again of setting up the name and icons on the blueprint. Or I have to go back to where the first placed blueprint was (if it exists) in my factory and then repeat the steps again. It's so much easier to blueprint everything by default, and when you place the blueprint, just rename the stop or just remove the trains manually (when blueprinting trains is implemented).

Please fix these issue in the next version as it's extremely frustrating to deal with and really makes me not enjoy the game as much as I used to. It's just a chore to deal with these things. I don't want to wait months for the next release of the game for these to be fixed. They have existed far too long already. This is a game about automation that forces players to do tedious and boring manual steps over and over again.

I don't mean to make the post sound negative, I just want to express constructive feedback. I still really love the game and want to see it improved. In general most of the changes you guys make are awesome, keep up the good work.

[Koub]

[snip]

The next update is very likely to be the next major release, and what you're asking for is not exactly just cosmetic touches. It's like saying to a car manufacturer "I don't want to wait for next year's model to get a chassis improvement, please add the improivements on this year's model because that makes sense".
Things need to get done, and from my experience, what seem the easiest from the oudside is sometimes the most complicated from the inside.

[T-A-R]

If the game get really irritating for you because of the blueprinting, rethink your strategy, or consider playing some other game to let this alpha game boil for a while.
Personally i'm glad the devs start to acknowledge the need for an in-depth blueprint system. But since we' re just in conceptualization phase, the next update shouldn' t be waiting for the blueprint features. Ofcource we focus on blueprints now, but in larger perspective (the entire road map), other things (like fluids) are waiting for an update too. Be glad devs take time to discuss their ideas with us, explain their thought and let us do proposals.

[Naium]

All in all I think its a good idea to rework the whole blueprint Idea.

I am a long working Programmer and I am fond of the Idea that everything that ever happens is documented somehow in the repository. Lets say we get the idea of "to the libraray linked"-blueprints put into the game. Id very much like to see some kind of Version-Management of certain blueprints. e.g.: I have a blueprint of a train station, then later on I discover that one of the inserters is facing the wrong way. Maybe I could then open the blueprint and press "update" and paste it over the updated version of my train station. The Blueprint would then just update every entity that is already there.

[ARandomDiamond]

I agree with proposal 3. I don't even like the current blueprint library and don't use it at all (i would rather use export to strong to go between worlds). I am also excited with the copy and paste for a temporary blueprint. Probably 90% of the time I use a blueprint they are one use.

So to address the problem presented, I would like the blueprint hotbar to have its own inventory that looks and acts like the main inventory. This would make everything so much simpler.

Also I have another idea: shift+right click clears a blue print, but there is NO WAY to remove that blueprint directly (i think, but if it is too hard to find it might as well not exist anyway). I think the simple solution is to shift+right click an empty blueprint again to delete it. So much nicer to clear you inventory of blueprints.