Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

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Sander_Bouwhuis
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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:04 pm

I play with a bunch of mods. It's a bit strange the achievements don't unlock though.

Two of the mods I use are Bob's mods and Angels' mods with pretty much all the options active. It's completely mad to get anything done. Yet, no achievements are unlocked even though those mods clearly make the game significantly harder.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Koub » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:24 pm

Mods can make some things easier, and some harder. Achievements for vanilla content is quite logical, it helps people can compare what's comparable.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by orzelek » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:02 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
eradicator wrote:
Jap2.0 wrote:
eradicator wrote:Funnily i don't agree. Because i firmly believe in a "vocal minority/silent majority" distribution as far as games go. So going by steam statistics is totally fine (especially lacking any other data :P).
It's a good place to start, but I'd still say it's significantly inaccurate. RSO has over 523,000 downloads - about half of Factorio's playerbase. FARL 249,000, Bottleneck 243,000, upgrade planner 229,000. Then add people who largely play the non-Steam version, people who have been using mods since before the Steam release and won't go back, etc.
Your using the total download count and pretend it's the total number of people who ever used RSO. The real number is probably closer to 50~100k people who downloaded 5~10 updates each. Just look at the per version downloads. Personally i've probably downloaded it 10+ times even though i haven't actually played a lot with it (mp, updates, reinstallations).
Statistics
That's true, perhaps that is a bit of an overestimate. I find it strange, through, that the mod portal lists less than 100,000 downloads of RSO, while in-game the number is more than five times that.
It's caused by deleting of older versions of mod from portal. I think that total counter just counts each and every download separately. In stats you will get only versions that are still there with their data.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:12 pm

Achievements work in modded play, they are just separate from vanilla achievements.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:32 am

Koub wrote:Mods can make some things easier, and some harder. Achievements for vanilla content is quite logical, it helps people can compare what's comparable.
I understand, but who plays vanilla? Maybe people on their very first foray into this game? The base game is like, for instance, Skyrim. It requires quite a lot of mods to make it fun to play.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by bohannon690 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:51 am

I really love to play this game with my family. I even figured out a way to play most of the campaign missions with them (saving, re-loading). I believe this could easily be a feature and would appeal to many who prefer to play games co-op such as myself.

I found myself not enjoying the game as much when the tech tree changed to not include the alien drops. I enjoyed hunting them with others and feel like they should be a more integral part of the game. That being said, this game would be pretty epic if you took the time to re-work them as a sort of biological factory. Units moving stuff around instead of machines. Have them spreading out for resources, and defending them. Eventually they could develop into another playable "faction" if you will. I believe this could add tremendous amount of depth to the game and especially any sort of "campaign" you are cooking up.

I would say that most players don't want you to hold their hand to try to figure things out. If you are going to make a "campaign" or some sort of "story" it should lead us on an adventure, not just be a tutorial. Use it as a background for who the aliens are, what they do, and create some lore.

I appreciate your work on this game, it has been thoroughly enjoyed. I look forward to what you guys come up with next.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Wackerstamfer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:20 am

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:The base game is like, for instance, Skyrim. It requires quite a lot of mods to make it fun to play.
I play vanilla, I have fun playing. I feel no need for mods. All depending on personal taste.

To enable achievements for modded versions requires a check for how the mod influences that achievement. Far to complicated .

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Scherazade » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:15 am

Achievement statistics show that only about 11% of players on Steam have ever launched a rocket, which currently means 'won the game'.
I am part of this 11% but it was no fun.
Launching a rocket is not the same as getting the Steam achievement because you have to do it without mods.
I had to play without Bottleneck, Bob's, Angel's and all those mods that are fun: Aircraft, Nanobots, Crafting Speed, etc. :roll:

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:21 am

A committee should be formed to go through and rate mods as one of three categories:

1.) exclusively makes the game harder in all ways in which it changes difficulty
2.) does not affect game difficulty in any way
3.) has anything in it that can make the game easier

All mods in category 1 and 2 (for their respective versions) should be flagged to allow achievements. Popular mods could then get rated, along with simple mods that are just easy to judge, and people who want achievements could stick to playing with mods that get the flag. If a mod fails the flag, they could discuss with the committee and make changes if they wanted to ensure they get the flag.


Example: Realistic Power
Nerfs:
- Solar panels reduced to 5.4 kW
- wood/coal/solid fuel/uranium fuel cell reduced to 1MJ/2MJ/6.25MJ/2GJ
- steam engine costs 10x as much materials, steam turbine costs 4x as much, nuclear reactor costs 4x as much
- accumulators either have less storage capacity or lower charge rate - useful but not easier
Buffs:
- most entities cost 1/2 power
- solar panels cost about half as much materials

Conclusion: rating 1
Explanation: The huge buff reducing power costs across the board is fully balanced out by even stronger power production nerfs across the board for all sources of power including plenty of mod support for other power mods such as KS power. The small buff to solar panel cost is easily overrode by their drastically lower output. There is no way (that I can see) to say that the mod can make the game easier.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:22 am

Scherazade wrote:
Achievement statistics show that only about 11% of players on Steam have ever launched a rocket, which currently means 'won the game'.
I am part of this 11% but it was no fun.
Launching a rocket is not the same as getting the Steam achievement because you have to do it without mods.
I had to play without Bottleneck, Bob's, Angel's and all those mods that are fun: Aircraft, Nanobots, Crafting Speed, etc. :roll:
I too am part of the 11%, but that was literally the only time I launched a rocket. I always stop with the map once I have researched everything. I never launch rockets because it's useless (to me). I think the first 33% of Factorio is a lot of fun, the next 33% is ok, and the last 33% is more tedious than fun.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by eradicator » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:56 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
Koub wrote:Mods can make some things easier, and some harder. Achievements for vanilla content is quite logical, it helps people can compare what's comparable.
I understand, but who plays vanilla? Maybe people on their very first foray into this game? The base game is like, for instance, Skyrim. It requires quite a lot of mods to make it fun to play.
I played Skyrim for about 120h without ever using mods. Because ye know, right after release there weren't a lot of them, and the "modding experience" for all Elder Scrolls games is horrible. You have to get an account on some shitty third party website (nex*s), then download every mod manually, make sure they load in the right order and are compatible to each other (no, installing some even more dubious "mod launcher" is not a valid option). And before you even get to that mess you have to find out what mods are even worth using. So it was simply not worth the time/effort for me to even try to use mods in Skyrim.
I also played vanilla factorio for several hundred hours, both because it was too much effort in the beginning to find out what mods are relevant to me, and because i was playing with friends who wanted steam achievements. Oh, and obviously because ye know, vanilla is actually pretty good.
Your argument reminds me of the minecraft modding community though. Everyone assumes for some unfathomable reason (=filter bubble) that surely a majority of players must be using mods, when in reality it's only like 10% of the player base.
______
thereaverofdarkness wrote:A committee should be formed to go through and rate mods as one of three categories:
And who do you suppose should pay that committee? Surely you do not suggest that people waste their whole life on this without getting paid? Unless you underestimate the workload by several orders of magnitude ofc. Remember that every new patch has to be rated. You never know how a mod changes. And also you've just created a two-class community that heavily discriminates anyone who makes or wants to play an easier game. Who are you to judge them? I hope your comittee has a flamewar and pitchfork resistant bunker :P.
thereaverofdarkness wrote:Conclusion: rating 1
Explanation: The huge buff reducing power costs across the board is fully balanced out by even stronger power production nerfs across the board for all sources of power including plenty of mod support for other power mods such as KS power.
Riight. And then someone comes along and combines this with an unsupported mod *gasp* that adds some mk2 panels and turbines and gets half power usage without increased cost or decreased output. By your own definition this is clearly a Cat 3 mod. You're already struggling with the rating yourself :P.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by meganothing » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:01 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: I understand, but who plays vanilla? Maybe people on their very first foray into this game? The base game is like, for instance, Skyrim. It requires quite a lot of mods to make it fun to play.
I'm sure vanilla would win a head count by a large margin (because players with over 100 hours always are the tip of the iceberg, the rest usually feels no need to hunt for mods). And even long time players don't necessarily need mods:

I have played F. for about 2 years now and have not tried a single mod yet. And definitely not because of achievements, I so much NOT care for achievements that it hurts sometimes :D

Of five friends who played Factorio too I know of only one for sure that he has tried out mods extensively.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:59 pm

I'm honestly surprised about that. Personally, I find vanilla Skyrim and vanilla Factorio difficult to enjoy. The idea of playing Skyrim without the UI mod is something I wouldn't even do if I got paid to do that. With Factorio there are also a bunch of mods that improve the game tremendously (my opinion of course).

And yes, I understand that if you buy Factorio and play it only for 5 hours and discover you don't like it... then obviously you won't play it with mods. But, I'm surprised that anyone with more than, say, 50 hours in wouldn't look at some of the great mods out there.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by herkalurk » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:24 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:I'm honestly surprised about that. Personally, I find vanilla Skyrim and vanilla Factorio difficult to enjoy. The idea of playing Skyrim without the UI mod is something I wouldn't even do if I got paid to do that. With Factorio there are also a bunch of mods that improve the game tremendously (my opinion of course).

And yes, I understand that if you buy Factorio and play it only for 5 hours and discover you don't like it... then obviously you won't play it with mods. But, I'm surprised that anyone with more than, say, 50 hours in wouldn't look at some of the great mods out there.
The first mod I installed after playing for at least 300 hours was an endless resource mod. My map from .12 build was not great, and I was getting annoyed by continually destroying and finding new mining sites. Now I have 5 large sites for copper/iron that my trains all refill from.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:51 pm

eradicator wrote:And who do you suppose should pay that committee? Surely you do not suggest that people waste their whole life on this without getting paid? Unless you underestimate the workload by several orders of magnitude ofc.
I think you underestimate the drive fans have to make this game better.
eradicator wrote:And also you've just created a two-class community that heavily discriminates anyone who makes or wants to play an easier game.
I didn't create the class system, it was already here. But you get to blame it on me for offering a solution to help alleviate it?
eradicator wrote:Riight. And then someone comes along and combines this with an unsupported mod *gasp* that adds some mk2 panels and turbines and gets half power usage without increased cost or decreased output. By your own definition this is clearly a Cat 3 mod. You're already struggling with the rating yourself :P.
No, if someone uses an unsupported mod, their achievements are disabled. Don't get all cocky about the obvious flaws in my argument if you haven't taken a moment to actually check if you're reading it properly.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by eradicator » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:33 am

@thereaverofdarkness
If you're actually serious about this...i tell you what i tell everyone else with a similar problem: Make a suggestions thread about it instead of derailing this one.
answer
(spoilered to save thread space)

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by daera » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:34 am

Hmm if I understood correctly campaign awfully looks like it was in warzone 2100. You start on your original base, and as campaign went you required to move base of operations and expand with map expanding and all you built intact. Would be interesting if there was some alien based tech like in warzone enemy based tech you need to secure or salvage.(like maybe finding and scrapping pieces of your rocket for tech, or maybe finding some fauna or flora which is special and gives insight into researching some components. Those two might be handy in few missions one with car to get to rocket, and another one for tank. Overdoing like in warzone might be not good idea as games slightly different, but as variety missions could be fun.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by zOldBulldog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Since there is a rework in progress I figured I'd complete the existing campaigns before they went away.

This reminded me of why I had abandoned them (the nuisance of biters and how much they interfere with initial learning and experimentation) and made me think of a solution:

Why not make the campaigns a two or more playthroughs process, similar to how many games unlock a new level of difficulty once you beat the initial one. The first pass through the campaign being with no biters (focused on the mechanics from first steps to launching a rocket), the second pass with regular biters (and tutorials on how to deal with them), and later ones with increasing levels of difficulty.

Of course, there would have to be an option that allows veterans to skip ahead to harder difficulties, maybe unlocked by how many times you beat the game or by how many hours of play you have accumulated.

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:48 pm

zOldBulldog wrote:Since there is a rework in progress I figured I'd complete the existing campaigns before they went away.

This reminded me of why I had abandoned them (the nuisance of biters and how much they interfere with initial learning and experimentation) and made me think of a solution:

Why not make the campaigns a two or more playthroughs process, similar to how many games unlock a new level of difficulty once you beat the initial one. The first pass through the campaign being with no biters (focused on the mechanics from first steps to launching a rocket), the second pass with regular biters (and tutorials on how to deal with them), and later ones with increasing levels of difficulty.

Of course, there would have to be an option that allows veterans to skip ahead to harder difficulties, maybe unlocked by how many times you beat the game or by how many hours of play you have accumulated.
PLEASE!!! DON'T LOCK AWAY CONTENT!!!!!!!!!!

This is a terrible idea!!!!!! Everything should be available from the start. No lootboxes to unlock better grenades, no difficulty levels locked until you are forced to play the game in a certain way.

PLEASE!!! DON'T LOCK AWAY CONTENT!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Friday Facts #245 - Campaign concept

Post by zOldBulldog » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:38 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote:
zOldBulldog wrote:Since there is a rework in progress I figured I'd complete the existing campaigns before they went away.

This reminded me of why I had abandoned them (the nuisance of biters and how much they interfere with initial learning and experimentation) and made me think of a solution:

Why not make the campaigns a two or more playthroughs process, similar to how many games unlock a new level of difficulty once you beat the initial one. The first pass through the campaign being with no biters (focused on the mechanics from first steps to launching a rocket), the second pass with regular biters (and tutorials on how to deal with them), and later ones with increasing levels of difficulty.

Of course, there would have to be an option that allows veterans to skip ahead to harder difficulties, maybe unlocked by how many times you beat the game or by how many hours of play you have accumulated.
PLEASE!!! DON'T LOCK AWAY CONTENT!!!!!!!!!!

This is a terrible idea!!!!!! Everything should be available from the start. No lootboxes to unlock better grenades, no difficulty levels locked until you are forced to play the game in a certain way.

PLEASE!!! DON'T LOCK AWAY CONTENT!!!!!!!!!!
ROFL. Did you read the last paragraph? key word there is *** OPTION ***

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