Reading Power capacity and demand

[bbgun06]

The third bar is possible if for some reason (Solar in the morning/evening or insufficient coal/water) the electrical generators are not producing their full amount, but the accumulators are able to make up the difference.
Basically any combination is is possible. The game doesn't need to care what situation is happening to draw the graph, it only needs to plot the important numbers on the line and color it accordingly.
Why does the production bar have to be a strict value? You're making an assumption that it has to be done a certain way when it doesn't.

[bobucles]

Why does the production bar have to be a strict value? You're making an assumption that it has to be done a certain way when it doesn't.

For the very simple reason that peak production doesn't change. What you have for energy generation is the peak production. There's nothing fancy about it and no reason to get cute with it. Why should the production bar be a fluctuating value? It does that right now and that's why it's so difficult to read.

[zOldBulldog]

Why does the production bar have to be a strict value? You're making an assumption that it has to be done a certain way when it doesn't.

For the very simple reason that peak production doesn't change. What you have for energy generation is the peak production. There's nothing fancy about it and no reason to get cute with it. Why should the production bar be a fluctuating value? It does that right now and that's why it's so difficult to read.

I think that here you hit the true key issue of this discussion:

- Given any set of production equiment, it can produce a certain amount of power. How much it can produce is a critical piece of information. That piece of information goes hand in hand with another piece... what is the maximum amount of power that your base has ever consumed at any given moment. Compare the two and you can immediately see whether you are over/under producing and by how much.

- Knowing how much you are currently producing/consuming is also useful, just like knowing how much of your power comes from stored energy (stored steam or accumulators)... but those are secondary information when compared production capacity vs max consumption.

[Cellfire]

i think the bars are alright as is. Current peak production is almost always changing if you are using solar. Depending on what is happening with steam or nukes it also changes.

the production bar give you a fairly good indication of what is happening when accumulators are not fully charged. I think it adds all their outputs to this bar once they become fully charged and makes it useless once you get to many of them.

In my current game with steam and nukes only, the production bar is sitting around 50% and showing 2.4GW. Maybe if it showed something like 2.4/4.8GW instead of just 2.4GW that would help a lot of people.
For it to be able to display the bar at 50% it must be calculating from some total already known to the game. As I can turn reactors off and it will go up to 70-80% of the bar but still say 2.4GW.

I find both satisfaction and production bars become not as helpful in solar only builds. This is where the 10min or 1 hour graph becomes more helpful.

[bobucles]

Current peak production is almost always changing if you are using solar. Depending on what is happening with steam or nukes it also changes.

Peak production on solar doesn't change. It's always 60kW per panel max. Only the current yield changes.

[Cellfire]

I guess maybe I mean yield then or made it clearer as I do mean yield as you put it. I did say current peak production and the current peak production of solar at night is 0.

If you made a bar or had a static number with the peak production as you outlined it, how does it help?. It is going to include all accumulators, solar and turbines possible max peak(60kW for solar) even if they are not outputting power(0-59kW for solar) or cannot supply what they say they can. Ending up with a production bar or number you are lead to believe is your max supply but may never reach. Even excluding accumulators you end up with the same outcome just not as extreme.

[bobucles]

How does it help

Very well in fact. I've already discussed a pile of simple fixes to the power bars over here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60364

Showing the production bar rising and sinking with the day cycle is good information because it's honest feedback about the system. When the solar panels reach night time your production is 0%, not 100% of nothing. Similarly as dawn and dusk flow your solar production changes from 0 to 100 and back again. That's good. That's exactly what's happening. There is no reason to show it any other way.

[Piroko]

Hey there,

It might be important to also include peak consumption, since many machines draw different amounts of power depending on whether they are active or idle.

I don't like peak consumption as an information because it is going to be screwed up with laser defense. Even in a deathworld you will probably never need to have enough reserves to keep every single laser defense firing. And peak consumption averaged over <arbitrary timeframe> is still going to stretch & compress that bar without proper feedback as to why specifically it is streched. edit: you'd also run into the issue that your averaged peak demand could be lower than your current demand which is kinda weird.

I think Piroko's mockup is brilliant. I suggest adding another bar for the accumulator charge state and capacity.

Yes, I would keep the accumulator bar but also change the colors between light blue for charging/charged and dark blue for discharging to establish a visual connection between the colors. That way you could get away without a color legend. Additionally, Accumulators could maybe have a time value next to their energy value - specifically "how many minutes/hours could the Accumulators run the factory at current consumption until they are drained". That's a nice bonus info for people to judge at a glance whether their Accumulator setup could be enough to last through the night in Solar/Accu playthroughs. The permanent visibility of what the solar panels will produce at peak during the day also helps to judge the reserves.

There is a flaw in Piroko's proposed setup. Namely the third bar is wrong.

Peak production accounts for solar and steam producers. However accumulators do not always drain because of reduced production. They drain because demand is higher than production, and this can readily happen at 100% production. The graph will not display that kind of info properly.

That would make Current Demand the highest absolute value, it would norm the graph to that value and look like this:

Electric Network1.png (10.71 KiB) Viewed 5998 times

...until the Accus run out of charge and that dark blue bar would turn red.

Not a fan of the 5th bar either. It breaks the model of the production bar having a strict value. When demand goes above production, it's asking for the bar to dynamically change with it to show the energy shortage. Making the production bar dynamic is exactly why the current system is so horrible to read.

As you noted, the 0.16 bars are already dynamic. In my opinion this is the correct approach here, I don't see a way how static values would improve the bars in an intuitive way. (edit: I mean, technically, peak production would be a fairly static number that only gets raised or lowered deliberately by the player)

The main problem I'm trying to address is that the two bars actually present the same information, but split into two dynamic bars when it should only be one bar. The way I envision this is by having actual, readable info pointers that dynamically move on the (also dynamical) bar. My inspiration is from this window in Frostpunk:

Specifically the bar to the right, except that it can pull double duty to not only show the current supply but also the maximum supply on one side, while only showing the current consumption on the other side. The integration of Accumulators is just an intuitive bonus to the graph. Unlike that Frostpunk window I would actually attach the text to the pointers though and let it move with them. The only readability issue I see is that in order for the text to not jitter these graphs need to be averaged to ~2 seconds per update (unlike now where they'll change with every tick). The bar would also need to be stretched to give text&pointers more space, but the space is there in the electric info window.

Keep in mind when looking at these mockups that in the first hours of gameplay this graph will look very similar for all new players, with current production matching current demand and a sizeable reserve in production. The additional information with Accumulators will only be relevant after the first 5~10 hours if at all.

[Piroko]

I guess maybe I mean yield then or made it clearer as I do mean yield as you put it. I did say current peak production and the current peak production of solar at night is 0.

That's one issue that would be unintuitive in my design, current maximum yield of solar panels is not always peak yield. Still, I think peak yield is a more valuable information for seasoned players because it allows you to judge whether you have enough spare production to charge your accus regardless of when you happen to look at the electricity network screen. How Accus & Solar Panels work ingame is something I'd reccomend to be explained in the tutorial anyways (don't know if it is, don't judge me).

If you made a bar or had a static number with the peak production as you outlined it, how does it help?. It is going to include all accumulators, solar and turbines possible max peak(60kW for solar) even if they are not outputting power(0-59kW for solar) or cannot supply what they say they can.

Accumulators don't produce energy, they only store it, similar to steam storage tanks. That's why they wouldn't be listed in peak production.

As for not being able to supply what they say they can, that's actually already a thing. You can put down way too many turbines for your nuclear plants to handle and the production graph will misguide you into believing that you have ample reserves until you try to actually use those "fake reserves" and suddenly you're supply limited. With my graph you'd actually have a visible indicator that you have unuseable reserves (fourth graph in my first post would indicate unuseable reserves) while in the current system they'd just disappear, there's a fair chance that you won't even notice that bottleneck and just assume that you need "more of everything".

edit: for reference I just created a quick example for fake reserves that get displayed ingame

Setup: Boiler can deliver 1.8 MW but I put down way too many Steam Engines. Production bar tells me I have ample reserves while only drawing 1.6 MW:

20180602185337_1.jpg (218.06 KiB) Viewed 5992 times

20180602185341_1.jpg (146.78 KiB) Viewed 5992 times

Now I add two more Radars and get above 1.8 MW but I have ample reserves, right?

20180602185405_1.jpg (220.4 KiB) Viewed 5992 times

20180602185407_1.jpg (150.58 KiB) Viewed 5992 times

Oh seems like I need more power generation. The only way I could figure out from that page that I have unused Steam Engines is if I specifically noticed that 6 Steam Engines should produce more than 1.8 MW. The fake reserves that were just there before have completely disappeared.

[HurkWurk]

i think we need slightly intelligent power entities.

what i mean is, the game should allow us to assemble 1 boiler and 2 steam engines into a power unit. the game would then calculate the energy of the whole unit as 1 thing with a supply and a result. so we would see fuel level, steam level, then turbine production level, with all 3 values having a current and max and configuration amount.

so i have 1 boiler. it has 5 coal in it. the run time of 5 coal is ~8 seconds. so the display shows fuel(coal) 3 per 8s of 5 per 8s consumption time < if we had better fuel in there we might see 1 per 16s of 5 per 16s.

the boiler is producing 35 of 60 steam per second. the unit consumption rate us currently 35 of 60 steam per second. < in both these cases im listing the current and max as configured. so if you used upgraded boilers or steam engines, you might see 35/80 with 35/60 etc.

then summarized in the power graph, we could see current use / current max potential / max potential minus bottlenecks

something like that.

[bobucles]

edit: I mean, technically, peak production would be a fairly static number that only gets raised or lowered deliberately by the player)

Which is exactly why the production bar should be a fixed value. When an energy producer isn't producing, that is vital information about the factory and the current system will not show it.

[mrvn]

Except that those fake reserves are exactly what you use to cover spikes or nights by using steam tanks.

[bobucles]

Steam tanks AREN'T real. They don't do anything except buffer a bad system that should never have buffering in the first place. But if you're silly enough to buffer steam then a fixed production bar is still the best way to show it:

- All the engines represent max power. This is a fixed value and does not change unless your factory changes.
- When steam storage is full you can produce max power.
- When steam storage is empty you have starving engines. Your engines are suffering a crisis and this would be shown as a production hazard below the max.

When energy production stops being 100% it is a clear message to feed your boilers more steam. Of course this is very easy to do by pulling out the steam tanks and putting the boilers that should have been there in the first place.

boiler tanks.jpg (266.41 KiB) Viewed 5909 times

Hey look at that. It's a perfect fit.

[mrvn]

Steam tanks AREN'T real. They don't do anything except buffer a bad system that should never have buffering in the first place. But if you're silly enough to buffer steam then a fixed production bar is still the best way to show it:

- All the engines represent max power. This is a fixed value and does not change unless your factory changes.
- When steam storage is full you can produce max power.
- When steam storage is empty you have starving engines. Your engines are suffering a crisis and this would be shown as a production hazard below the max.

When energy production stops being 100% it is a clear message to feed your boilers more steam. Of course this is very easy to do by pulling out the steam tanks and putting the boilers that should have been there in the first place.

boiler tanks.jpg

Hey look at that. It's a perfect fit.

Seems like you never used solar cells together with steam tanks.

[Piroko]

Except that those fake reserves are exactly what you use to cover spikes or nights by using steam tanks.

That is not an argument in favor of the current Electric network info tab... You're talking from a seasoned player perspective who has mathed out his power production and looks at this page maybe once every couple of hours.

The reason we are discussing this panel is because it's not intuitive to new players, it could present its info in a better way with only moderate changes, possibly even while adding information that is appreciated by seasoned players.

I took some time to create a better mockup of how I could see the Electric Network Info tab updated:

Factorio Power.jpg (393.96 KiB) Viewed 5894 times

It looks a bit busy because I didn't stretch the top part, that would help to declutter it.
A line for satisfaction is probably only useful if it's not 100%.
Similarly, a line for Accumulator charge is only useful if Accus are being charged or drained at that moment.

Maybe the orbs could be clickable elements to enable/disable individual lines if they annoy players.

Any comments?

[vedrit]

Except that those fake reserves are exactly what you use to cover spikes or nights by using steam tanks.

That is not an argument in favor of the current Electric network info tab... You're talking from a seasoned player perspective who has mathed out his power production and looks at this page maybe once every couple of hours.

The reason we are discussing this panel is because it's not intuitive to new players, it could present its info in a better way with only moderate changes, possibly even while adding information that is appreciated by seasoned players.

I took some time to create a better mockup of how I could see the Electric Network Info tab updated:

Factorio Power.jpg

It looks a bit busy because I didn't stretch the top part, that would help to declutter it.
A line for satisfaction is probably only useful if it's not 100%.
Similarly, a line for Accumulator charge is only useful if Accus are being charged or drained at that moment.

Maybe the orbs could be clickable elements to enable/disable individual lines if they annoy players.

Any comments?

It looks good, but what about when requested power exceeds installed production? That's also the biggest issue I have against a fixed bar; if you have something exceeding whatever you have fixed at the end of the bar, then what?

[Piroko]

It looks good, but what about when requested power exceeds installed production? That's also the biggest issue I have against a fixed bar; if you have something exceeding whatever you have fixed at the end of the bar, then what?

The "installed production" element isn't fixed to the end, it just happens to be the highest absolute value in my example. The highest absolute value (which can either be requested power if your base wants more power than what you can produce, or installed production if you have enough spare power plants) defines the scale and the other arrow would point to the position where the value would be represented on the bar. I did a quick mockup how that could look like:

Unbenannt1.JPG (45.72 KiB) Viewed 5865 times

This situation looks like this in 1.16:

Unbenannt.JPG (11.55 KiB) Viewed 5865 times

Btw Accumulators can't break this scale either, since they can only charge with what you can produce and they won't discharge more than what is necessary to match 100% satisfaction.

[vedrit]

It looks good, but what about when requested power exceeds installed production? That's also the biggest issue I have against a fixed bar; if you have something exceeding whatever you have fixed at the end of the bar, then what?

The "installed production" element isn't fixed to the end, it just happens to be the highest absolute value in my example. The highest absolute value (which can either be requested power if your base wants more power than what you can produce, or installed production if you have enough spare power plants) defines the scale and the other arrow would point to the position where the value would be represented on the bar. I did a quick mockup how that could look like:

Unbenannt1.JPG

This situation looks like this in 1.16:

Unbenannt.JPG

Btw Accumulators can't break this scale either, since they can only charge with what you can produce and they won't discharge more than what is necessary to match 100% satisfaction.

That works. My comment was more towards others who have posted saying that the power production should be fixed