Logistic Network Research

[libik]

Hi,
I have started once again after some time. What I have noticed is that researching of logistic network became quite difficult. You can get roboports etc. quite easily, so I was hoping that for recipes that requires lot of special ingredients, I can start using the robots... However I was surprised that to get requester chest, you have to invent logicist network which requires 5 different science packs with one of them being quite late-game material.

I know the game is focused on belts and trains and these robots should be for late-game usage, still its "too late" in my opinion. I would be fine with expensivity - like it costs i.e. 500-750x red, green and blue, so you really have to invest heavily to get that. But it would allow you to get these options before having already being forced to create almost all science packs types with belts.

Whats your opinion on that?

[zOldBulldog]

I agree with you. To me the fun of the game is in design, not in doing stupid repetitive tasks that the bots help to avoid.

[Hedning1390]

Robots solve any and all logistics problems. They "solve" the game, so to get them you have to first beat the game.

This is what bots turn your game into. https://i.imgur.com/jv0hQ6f.png There's no challenge building with bots at this level. Completely game breaking.

[zOldBulldog]

Robots solve any and all logistics problems. They "solve" the game, so to get them you have to first beat the game.

This is what bots turn your game into. https://i.imgur.com/jv0hQ6f.png There's no challenge building with bots at this level. Completely game breaking.

If that is your concern there is an easy solution:. Make robots available from the beginning after you beat the game for the first time, or better yet... make it a map generation option that becomes available after you launch a rocket in a previous game.

That way those that like the constant "challenge" of placing every single item by hand can have it, those that like to do various designs including non-all-bot designs without having to manually place everything can do it, and those that like to do all-bot designs can choose that too.

There is absolutely no need to try to force every player into the form of play that only a few prefer.

[Hedning1390]

You may be confused. Construction bots are unlocked quite early because we all agree that placing things by hand is not what is fun about this game. This topic is about when the requester chest is unlocked. There is no forcing here. If you want instant teleportation and other game-breaking things available from the start there are mods for that.

[zOldBulldog]

You may be confused. Construction bots are unlocked quite early because we all agree that placing things by hand is not what is fun about this game. This topic is about when the requester chest is unlocked. There is no forcing here. If you want instant teleportation and other game-breaking things available from the start there are mods for that.

Good point. I misread. Yes, I agree there is not much need for early requester chest except for loading trains.

On the other hand I would not mind seeing sooner the Buffer chests or some other convenient mechanism to return trash collected resources to the bus(es). But that could probably be satisfied easily if storage chest Filters allowed storage chests to draw from other storage chests that have no filter turn on.

I would also not mind seeing construction/logistic bots being buildable when they are unlocked (they currently depend on a long chain of factories that take you up around blue/purple science and quite a scaling up of your smelters by the time you start building them). But meh, once I'm done with the various achievements (assuming I don't get bored with all the manual repetitive labor before then and dump the game) I'll just use the nanobot mod.

[fuinril]

Robots solve any and all logistics problems. They "solve" the game, so to get them you have to first beat the game.

This is what bots turn your game into. https://i.imgur.com/jv0hQ6f.png There's no challenge building with bots at this level. Completely game breaking.

I have to disagree a bit.

If I agree this is what you have after using bot, it allows to put the game on another scale where design is more about how to manage expansion and resources management than how to transport materials.

Of course that's not really a thing you will need before you're first rocket launch (at least on a vanilla game)

[bobucles]

If I agree this is what you have after using bot, it allows to put the game on another scale where design is more about how to manage expansion and resources management than how to transport materials.

There's a lot of fun in belt spaghetti. Without belt spaghetti everything turns into a bot mall. Bot malls are efficient but they are not nearly as fun.

It is more fun to keep requester chests a late game option. Sometimes less is more and this is definitely true for bots.

[zOldBulldog]

If I agree this is what you have after using bot, it allows to put the game on another scale where design is more about how to manage expansion and resources management than how to transport materials.

There's a lot of fun in belt spaghetti. Without belt spaghetti everything turns into a bot mall. Bot malls are efficient but they are not nearly as fun.

It is more fun to keep requester chests a late game option. Sometimes less is more and this is definitely true for bots.

If you like belt spaghetti, have at it. But don't expect everyone to enjoy the sames things you do, many of us prefer to focus on higher design tasks without having to handle every resource manually.

And sure, there will be some people that will go the route of "use the bots for everything". If so, that's their choice too.

The point being missed here, is that it just plain wrong to want to force everybody to play the way *you* enjoy. Successful games give options and let each person find his own niche.

[bman212121]

Robots solve any and all logistics problems. They "solve" the game, so to get them you have to first beat the game.

This is what bots turn your game into. https://i.imgur.com/jv0hQ6f.png There's no challenge building with bots at this level. Completely game breaking.

No they don't. Your base only turns into that if you choose to play that way. It's the same sad argument someone else was trying to make about beacons. The game used to give you options of how YOU wanted to do it, not what someone else says they feel is the only way. This change 100% stifles creativity for no real reason.

@libik: This change is from the fallout of belts vs bots. I complain about it every chance I can because it does not serve an actual purpose other than to handicap the logistics network. If you're a super lame / lazy / non creative person, you could use this to be lazy if you wanted to. But you can already do that with blueprints, beacons, etc. If you have no creativity whatsoever you probably already copy other people's blueprints that are "100% optimized" and just dump them into your game. You can likely download a blueprint by now that would let you get 100% achievements without having to think at all. Just place items on top of where someone says to place them and you can beat the game. The logistics chest are just another tool to help you complete the game, and used to let you get into it much earlier. It's a shame we still have to argue about it and the devs haven't just fixed this glaring issue, but I'm hoping that before the game goes final they will tweak this slightly so it's not as obnoxious. (A FFF from 2 weeks ago would make it seem like these chests should probably require production packs by their thoughts, but definitely not high tech packs.)

[bman212121]

If I agree this is what you have after using bot, it allows to put the game on another scale where design is more about how to manage expansion and resources management than how to transport materials.

There's a lot of fun in belt spaghetti. Without belt spaghetti everything turns into a bot mall. Bot malls are efficient but they are not nearly as fun.

It is more fun to keep requester chests a late game option. Sometimes less is more and this is definitely true for bots.

If you like belt spaghetti, have at it. But don't expect everyone to enjoy the sames things you do, many of us prefer to focus on higher design tasks without having to handle every resource manually.

And sure, there will be some people that will go the route of "use the bots for everything". If so, that's their choice too.

The point being missed here, is that it just plain wrong to want to force everybody to play the way *you* enjoy. Successful games give options and let each person find his own niche.

This is exactly the point that seems to go over people's heads every time this gets brought up. I'm so glad someone else realizes this and acknowledges that this change really hurts people's creativity.

[SirSmuggler]

It seems to me what we are disscussing here is the place in the techtree for the logistic network, not the existens of it (or of logistics bots in general).

The entire techtree is by it's very nature an artificial limitation on "creativity" and "options". If we do away with it completely and everything is avalible from the begining, then every one can chose what techs they want to use and in what order and so on. Ultimate freedom and choise, right? Somehow I don't think any one realy wants that.

So it's not about forcing one "playstyle" over an other, the very existence of the techtree allready does this. It's all about finding the "right" spot in the techtree for this particular pice of technology. No mater where it is, some will like it and others will not. The best the devs can do is to place it where they think it will be the most "fun" for the most people.

[Lee_newsum]

The best way I found to skip the staring game and get to the fun part is to use the map editor and put what I like in to chests and go from there.

[Tricorius]

Robots solve any and all logistics problems. They "solve" the game, so to get them you have to first beat the game.

This is what bots turn your game into. https://i.imgur.com/jv0hQ6f.png There's no challenge building with bots at this level. Completely game breaking.

Meh. I keep seeing this BS on the forum.

The last time I unlocked Logistics networks, the game didn’t automatically launch a robot swarm that destroyed all of my belts and locked their UI. It is a strawman.

You are the ultimate limiting factor in your base design.

Maybe your game binary is different...but oddly enough, in mine I can still build a belt segment even when well into the infinite robot upgrades.

The bots aren’t going to stop me from creating a huge rail loop through the middle of my base and having trains stop long enough to direct insert from train wagons into assemblers and direct insert back into the train.

All hail rail spaghetti!!!

Stop blaming the poor, innocent bots, they aren’t little mini-moustached base-dictators. They just do what you tell them to.

Although now I want a mod that adds mustaches to all my robots.

[Amarula]

Stop blaming the poor, innocent bots, they aren’t little mini-moustached base-dictators. They just do what you tell them to.

Although now I want a mod that adds mustaches to all my robots.

Oh yes me too... a whole base of flying mustachioed bots!

[HurkWurk]

people tend to twist two concepts without realizing it.

its not that you have to use bots. you dont.

bases just naturally gravitate to bots because they are less impactful on updates, so as your game scales to a mega base, if you want to play at more than 1FPS, you are going to turn off some spaghetti to reclaim their wasted UPS.

however, if you want to stay at the medium sized base era, or like me, and use mods to make a mini base into a mega base production levels, then by all means, stay with spaghetti.

just know that when you start lagging, that spaghetti is the cause.

[Tricorius]

people tend to twist two concepts without realizing it.

its not that you have to use bots. you dont.

Yeah. Sorry. Rereading my earlier post it came off more mean spirited than I intended. I was mostly going for humor.

I guess my main problem is that I can’t wrap my head around the “if I don't like it, no one should use it” mentality.

I do understand multiplayer balance, but I still maintain Factorio is predominately a single-player game, and therefore should have single-player be its primary design focus. Multiplayer should be adjusted...perhaps a setting to lock out portions of the tech tree or craftables for a particular server, so that it can be accomplished in vanilla.

[zOldBulldog]

I guess my main problem is that I can’t wrap my head around the “if I don't like it, no one should use it” mentality.

I do understand multiplayer balance, but I still maintain Factorio is predominately a single-player game, and therefore should have single-player be its primary design focus. Multiplayer should be adjusted...perhaps a setting to lock out portions of the tech tree or craftables for a particular server, so that it can be accomplished in vanilla.

I couldn't have said it better. Well said.

[meganothing]

I guess my main problem is that I can’t wrap my head around the “if I don't like it, no one should use it” mentality.

We probably can rule out that the developers think "no one else should use it". So what is their goal to do it that way? They have to make a game that guides the beginner in a way that he doesn't end up destroying the game for himself. That is probably why they keep the bots at late game, so that no beginner stumbles onto the "cop out" design early on. Which he now probably would only use after playing some more hours and setting his sight on building a mega-factory.

And the experienced players who want to start with bots early on? They can reuse an old save game where bots are already researched, use blueprints for the boring early base stuff or use a mod where requesters chests are available early. You ARE experienced, you should know the ways around this.

[Tricorius]

And the experienced players who want to start with bots early on? They can reuse an old save game where bots are already researched, use blueprints for the boring early base stuff or use a mod where requesters chests are available early. You ARE experienced, you should know the ways around this.

Oh, yes. I’ve spent way too many hours in Factorio. And will spend way too many more.

I’m not too concerned with the unlock experience for new players. It is probably fairly well balanced as you spelled out reasonably well. When I unlocked bots for the first time I loved those gorgeous little metallic guys. The flocking aesthetics make me feel like I have a swarm of little birds doing my bidding.

But I miss them in a new start. Obviously, new players don’t know what they are missing. I would like construction bots available from the moment I pull myself up off the dusty ground after crash landing. I would like logistics bots available way sooner than they are. I do know mods can make this happen. Hell, I’m a developer, I’m capable of digging in and making my own mods (I have done this in other games). But I have issues with mods. The devs are fixing lots of them. But I don’t think “just use mods” is the best answer to everything.

I also disagree that bots are a “cop out” design. They have their own trade offs to use well. Anyone who has spent a reasonable amount of time with them understands that. Perhaps bots should be made more interesting to use, not just more punitively difficult to use.

Honestly, I don’t see that much fundamental difference in setting up an early “mall” with logistics bots vs a set of five vertical belts. Other than style or preference. Why is a huge vertical parallel line more interesting or prettier than nicely laid out rows of assemblers and chests? Is striping five rows of belts endlessly upward a feat that Michelangelo would commend, while scoffing at the dude using robots? (Well, maybe he would...I never knew him.)

For those wishing virtual disdain through the internet toward me because nicely-aligned “malls” are a horrendous practice, likely to send their practitioners to one of the deepest circles of hell...because, well...everyone knows belt spaghetti is the only true form of expressing oneself in Factorio: please DM me, you can have a talk with the “OCD” side of my brain.

Again, I simply don’t get the fundamental mindset of “the way you want to do it is bad, so no one should do it that way”. (Also, I’m not saying this is the attitude of the devs, if that were, they’d remove the bots altogether and “damn the torpedos”.)

Underground belt weaving makes me twitch a bit when I see it, but you don't see me proclaiming to everyone who does it that they are devilspawn and should immediately ask the town friar to cleanse their sins. I don’t request belt braiding be removed from the game...I just let them be, and do things my way.

/shrug

It isn’t hard, and it is quite healthy.