Iron Chests, An Idea for Conversion and Re-Use

[bobingabout]

Bobucles, you still haven't told me what you're using steel chests for, or why there is ever a need to upgrade above iron.

As far as I can tell, steel chests exist solely as an ingredient to be used in Logistic Chests. Logistic chests are certainly useful, but their utility comes from outside of the 48-stacks they provide.

In my experience, it's typically as storage until logistics chests, and then as an ingredient for logistics chests. When you replace a steel chest with a logistics chest (as a mall gets upgraded, for example), you get a steel chest in your inventory that can be turned into another logistics chest. When you replace an iron chest with a logistics chest, you get an iron chest that's only going to be useful if you're using iron chests for buffers.

That's not the end of the world, certainly, but using iron for buffers in the later game means you've got an assembler dedicated to making them and you're carrying them around in your inventory. Why not cut that out, and just use the steel chest assembler that's providing your logistics chest ones, and carry around just the one type of chest (which can be handcrafted into a logistics chest in a pinch)?

which is exactly why the iron chest as it is now is pointless.

though, for those who are saying a steel chest is pointless, maybe add an iron logistic chest range? or get rid of the steel chest, but make the iron chest take it's place? (48 slots and used to craft logistic chests)

[Lav]

I don't see a problem with iron chests as they're now. Sure I don't use them much, but I usually carry around some iron anyway, so the ability to quickly produce a couple of chests on demand is pretty useful in my book.

It would be nice if I could smelt iron chests back into iron if/when I'm performing a major storage upgrade throughout my base and suddenly find myself with scores of iron chests. But apart from that specific situation, even them being dead-end item itsn't much of a problem.

[Koub]

Can't you people realize you just have different opinions, that are totally valid when looked at from your point of view, and that there is no right or wrong answer, it's just a matter of personal preference. Therefore as there are several valid, but opposite opinions on the topic, letting things as-is would be the right option.

[Lav]

Can't you people realize you just have different opinions, that are totally valid when looked at from your point of view, and that there is no right or wrong answer, it's just a matter of personal preference. Therefore as there are several valid, but opposite opinions on the topic, letting things as-is would be the right option.

Actually I'm pretty sure the best option would be to allow smelting of iron (and possibly steel) chests.

[Koub]

Can't you people realize you just have different opinions, that are totally valid when looked at from your point of view, and that there is no right or wrong answer, it's just a matter of personal preference. Therefore as there are several valid, but opposite opinions on the topic, letting things as-is would be the right option.

Actually I'm pretty sure the best option would be to allow smelting of iron (and possibly steel) chests.

... or destruction of obsolete items (without having to use the chest destruction trick)

[bobucles]

... or destruction of obsolete items (without having to use the chest destruction trick)

There's an even simpler solution. It doesn't create any problems if it doesn't exist.

. Therefore as there are several valid, but opposite opinions on the topic

I'm not seeing a lot of opposite opinions. In fact I'm seeing many supporting opinions. Observe:
- I want to smelt iron chests
- I want to recycle iron chests
- I put iron chests in a box and run them over

Those don't sound like endorsements at all. They sound like the exact opposite of liking iron chests. The only real argument for supporting iron chests is their slightly lower cost, which has yet to be proven to have any significant real world value. Wood chests are already superior for the low resource market, and there's nothing wrong with making steel chests slightly cheaper as the final nail in the coffin.

[RiiDii]

Those don't sound like endorsements at all. They sound like the exact opposite of liking iron chests. The only real argument for supporting iron chests is their slightly lower cost, which has yet to be proven to have any significant real world value. Wood chests are already superior for the low resource market, and there's nothing wrong with making steel chests slightly cheaper as the final nail in the coffin.

I guess you missed how valuable Iron Chests are for Death World or any limited/expensive resources settings. When Steel Chests cost 10x more than Iron Chests, you don't have a lot of Iron Deposits to work with, and you are making some serious prioritization choices; you go with Iron Chests. When you get into the more difficult game settings, Iron Chests become solid long-term items. I don't see getting rid of them just because the beginner/easy settings make them nearly useless.

[Zavian]

I'm not seeing a lot of opposite opinions. In fact I'm seeing many supporting opinions. Observe:
- I want to smelt iron chests
- I want to recycle iron chests
- I put iron chests in a box and run them over

I think that most of the people commenting on this thread are simply people who want to reuse iron chests. People who consider the status quo fine are probably not bothering to comment. So i don't think you can claim general support.

Personally I almost never make iron chests. Wood chests are good enough until I get logistics networks up and I need logistics chests. I'm also one of those players who tends to use wooden poles even in the end game. The only two times I can recall making iron chests were when I started in a massive desert and finding fallen trees for the initial power poles was a problem, and during a seablock run.

I'm a firm believer that to be meaningful, choices in games should have consequences (preferably both upsides and downsides).
- Wooden chests cost wood. In early game I might be chopping down enough trees that wood is essentially free. Other games I might be short on wood. If I want to dispose of them I can burn them.
- Iron chests cost iron. Iron is potentially more valuable than wood (depends on where I start and whether I'm gathering enough wood clearing land). Larger capacity and stronger than wooden chests. Can't be recycled, only way to get rid of iron chests is to destroy them. But they can be skipped entirely, or if you only make a few, they only take up one slot just sitting in a trash chest, hence there is no need for the player to destroy them.
- Steel chests. Significantly more expensive than iron chests. Needs research. Note that the cost of that research is just 50 copper plates and 100 iron plates. That is cheaper than 20 iron chests. You can easily research steel chests without using any chests at all. Essential component of all logistics chests (hence can be recycled). Again larger and stronger than iron chests.

So to me they all have upsides and downsides. That sounds like good game design to me, it is certainly better game design than allowing you to smelt iron chests back into iron, which would remove the only real downside of iron chests. If you really want to recycle iron chests, then make the steel chest recipe take iron chests + steel, and do it that way. If you really want to smelt iron chests to recycle them, then I think one iron chests should smelt to one steel rather than iron.

[BlakeMW]

Those don't sound like endorsements at all. They sound like the exact opposite of liking iron chests. The only real argument for supporting iron chests is their slightly lower cost, which has yet to be proven to have any significant real world value.

I've already given examples of opportunity cost, like a train station with 6 chests per wagon requires 48 steel to make the chests for one side of a wagon, if you go two sides it's 96 steel. If there are two wagons, now 192 steel or 960 iron. Going with iron chests requires only 192 iron. It's 1/5th the cost. What might I prefer to do with the ~150 steel saved? Well, it could pay the steel cost of nearly 8 laser turrets which would be a rather comprehensive defense for the station when laser turrets become available, or for the steel cost of 25 steel furnaces.

I can respect the viewpoint that wooden chests are even better than iron chests because they are even cheaper (even though I don't agree with it for various reasons*), I just don't accept the viewpoint that the cost difference between iron chests and steel chests is insignificant, at least not at the stage of the game when steel chests become available. Once you're thoroughly in the mid-game and making things like Nuclear Reactors, sure, by then the cost of a steel chest is probably so insignificant that inventory space becomes the scarcer resource. Even then the old iron chests are still perfectly adequate for use at non-logistic train stations, unless you go full bots everywhere there's no real need to ever get rid of old iron chests.


* One of the main reasons I don't agree is the time spend wood chopping. Even quite early in the game getting extra stacks of iron is as simple as pulling them out of a burner drill+stone furnace combo which continues making iron plates with very little player time investment. Every bit of wood has to come from whacking trees with the pitiful iron axe. This makes wood expensive in terms of time. And I regularly find myself being forced to chop more trees simply to get enough wood to make small power poles. I find it doubtful that 2 wood is actually cheaper than 8 iron once you have even a little bit of force multiplier from mining drills. And sure sometimes you end up with a glut of wood from being forced to clearcut an ore patch before grenades become available, but this is an erratic supply which won't be available in every game, even moreso now that the map generator removes the vast majority of trees from starting area ore patches:

[Meddleman]

I got it. Reduce the Cargo-Wagon iron usage in the recipe to 16, add in 1 Iron Chest, total iron raw becomes 44, recipe kiiiinda makes a little sense since ie. the fluid-wagon needs a fluid-tank as well as its other raws.

Oooor not. I dunno, just chucking suggestions into the air.

[Hedning1390]

I guess you missed how valuable Iron Chests are for Death World or any limited/expensive resources settings.

Try wooden chests. I guarantee your factory will be better off with the smaller buffer too.

* One of the main reasons I don't agree is the time spend wood chopping. Even quite early in the game getting extra stacks of iron is as simple as pulling them out of a burner drill+stone furnace combo which continues making iron plates with very little player time investment. Every bit of wood has to come from whacking trees with the pitiful iron axe. This makes wood expensive in terms of time.

I agree. But on the other hand early game you don't really need many chests. Compared to how much wood you will be chopping for power poles the extra needed for chests is negligible.