[0.10.2][kovarex] sience packs disappear

[Shaymes]

some sience packs are get lost by research with multipe labs

i notice it by crafting 60 packs, research a 50 packs sience, and got 7 left so 3 are missing

[Lee_newsum]

1) did you look in the labs.
2)did all the labs start at the some time? because you can lost some this way. how if you have 10 labs, 3 start 5s befor the overs ones (10 labs doing a 50 packs sience 5x) so on the 5 time labs 1-3 finish 5s befor the over one and load 3 more packs them 4-10 finish the research is done so lads have 3 packs that are lost.
as far as I no this has bin from 0.8.8.

[Shaymes]

nope my labs are empty, but that explains where are my missing research packs

[Rahjital]

I think this happens whenever you finish a research. Any labs that are still researching will stop, but their science packs are not refunded.

[ssilk]

Hm. Unclear, if that is a bug.

From the current standpoint it is worth a discussion, cause the more labs you use, the more you waste. That is quite natural: the more you use, the more is wasted to the end, cause it doesn't fit exactly to the end.

From a possible future standpoint much less a bug, cause I think it would be a cool idea to measure the progress in research and reduce the number of labs to the end with circuit network. Sometimes. Far away. Not working yet.

[slpwnd]

This is a simplification in how the laboratories work. It has always been like that. Technically this is not a bug because the game has been designed this way. Also when you have automated research usually you are in the stage when you don't really care about wasting couple of science packs. Though in extreme case it can be up to (number of labs - 1) * science packs for research unit.

I also like ssilks idea about setting up the labs in such a way that only those that are needed will work. Another option is that we can consider refunding the science packs when research is stopped in the middle (but that should go to ideas and suggestions or something).

[BurnHard]

Well even it it has been designed that way, I see that as an (from the players perspective) "buggy" behaviour. Items disappearing from the gameworld without any explanation or reason never seems to be intended.

I have always been wondering, but just accepted it "because of alpha".

[ssilk]

Hm. Agreed. Just a short notice, to splwnd's comment:
- I like, that the progress gets lost; if you overdo the research (30 labs and more) you need to handle that or live with it. For me it's quite natural, that when you don't look at it, you must waste stuff.
- We can eventually research some "unwasteful research", which changes research so, that not too much labs research the same stuff. This will also bring this problem to the players mind.
- How, if we can research several things at the same time? So, when nearly finished I could reprogram the labs to progress already to the next research.

[Ohlmann]

The only pack I mind losing from that are the tier 4 one, because they need artifact. The other I can live with.

[kovarex]

So after some thinking I have to say, that the current behavior should be kept as it is.

• Solution1: only labs needed to finish the research start working, the rest of the labs will stay idle, so when you have 15 labs and 10 unit to finish the research, 10 labs will work, 5 will stay idle. The problem of this is, that sometimes, some of the labs could not get the science packs, so it could happen that these not-supplied labs will block the research from being finished. The same applied with lack of electricity etc. It would cause a lot of confusion, and players would post bug reports like "Labs not working".
• Solution2: Refund the science packs of labs that have work in progress when the research is finished. The problem of this solution is, that as we have the bonus production available, it would allow in some cases, to get the bonus production research, while keeping the science packs.
  The extreme case is a modded game, that allows modules to give more than 100% bonus (might expensive etc.), as long as you would have enough labs, it would make all the research for free.

As the extra consumed science packs can be just regarded as the waste caused by massive research (5 scientist don't research 5 times the science ^^) and game mechanics, we will leave it as it is, so I'm moving it to not a bug until there is some good counter argument

[BurnHard]

One idea i had was to handle science packs like fuel items and science labs as "burners"

Eg Science lab takes one science pack 1, uses it and gets a bar of "red science" just like a burner does with coal.

As long as something (which needs red science packs) is researched, the bar decreases, just like eg smelting iron. When the research is completed, the bar stops decreasing. But the current status is "saved" when finished, just like in a smelter. For each science pack 1-4 a seperate bar exists. So if research 1 needed a alien pack and only uses half of it in all the science labs, the "alien scienpack pack fuel bar^^" stays at 50% and just stays there until another science project is started which uses that bar.

This would allow of balancing the reseach costs easier and no packs would disappear between researches. Lab efficiency and speed modules would just be more visible by increasing research power eg, drowning that bar faster. Effectivity modules would work like enlarging the bar or make it more dense.

(For balancing, treat research time a tech needs as research-Megajoule, and each science lab produces a certain amount of science-power-kW, fueled by science packs^^)

Would be nice to get some feedback

[kovarex]

I like this idea, it makes it all much more precise.

[BurnHard]

...happy to hear that.

[Shaymes]

is there no way that a lab stop progress bar if a research is done and continue woriking with new research? like a mining drill that cant unload the ore?



edit: err just read BurnHard post i like that too

[Nova]

I don't like wasted ressources. Even more because we don't have unlimited ressources, but finite fields. Also i don't think it adds anything useful to the game. If you really think that's the right way, make a poll.

[HeilTec]

One idea i had was to handle science packs like fuel items and science labs as "burners"

Eg Science lab takes one science pack 1, uses it and gets a bar of "red science" just like a burner does with coal.
(...)
Would be nice to get some feedback

That is a brilliant and logical solution. I would like to see that implemented - sometime.

Until then some fiddling with the number of active labs is needed to avoid waste.

In the early game a simple way to balance the labs would be to use 5 or 10 labs only.
Later when all research needing less than 50 units have been finished (or not needed) then perhaps 25 or 50 labs?
Productivity modules will make the numbers harder to calculate and often result in a fractional count of labs
Use of smart inserters controlled by the contents of a smart chest (adjusted between research of different demands) may be the only choice for 100% loss-less research.

[SilverWarior]

[quote="BurnHard"]Eg Science lab takes one science pack 1, uses it and gets a bar of "red science" just like a burner does with coal.

As long as something (which needs red science packs) is researched, the bar decreases, just like eg smelting iron. When the research is completed, the bar stops decreasing. But the current status is "saved" when finished, just like in a smelter. For each science pack 1-4 a seperate bar exists. So if research 1 needed a alien pack and only uses half of it in all the science labs, the "alien scienpack pack fuel bar^^" stays at 50% and just stays there until another science project is started which uses that bar. [*/quote]

That is basically just what I wanted to suggest.
The only additional chagne I would like to see is that lab can start research even if it only has red bar partially ful and all othes empty despite that technology you are researching reqoures both red and green science packs.
Another advantage that this would bring is that technologies cour now require diferent amounts of different science packs (10 red science packs and 5 green).

[Calico]

I like this direction. While a few wasted science packs don't hurt anyone in a normal game, i can foresee several maps with low biter counts that make science pack mk IV very costly in terms of time.

[Turtle]

So after some thinking I have to say, that the current behavior should be kept as it is.

• Solution1: only labs needed to finish the research start working, the rest of the labs will stay idle, so when you have 15 labs and 10 unit to finish the research, 10 labs will work, 5 will stay idle. The problem of this is, that sometimes, some of the labs could not get the science packs, so it could happen that these not-supplied labs will block the research from being finished. The same applied with lack of electricity etc. It would cause a lot of confusion, and players would post bug reports like "Labs not working".
• Solution2: Refund the science packs of labs that have work in progress when the research is finished. The problem of this solution is, that as we have the bonus production available, it would allow in some cases, to get the bonus production research, while keeping the science packs.
  The extreme case is a modded game, that allows modules to give more than 100% bonus (might expensive etc.), as long as you would have enough labs, it would make all the research for free.

As the extra consumed science packs can be just regarded as the waste caused by massive research (5 scientist don't research 5 times the science ^^) and game mechanics, we will leave it as it is, so I'm moving it to not a bug until there is some good counter argument

IMHO, solution 1 is the cleanest and most elegant option. Solution 2 can create exploits with researching things that require only red science packs and having it complete before all labs finish, then using the remaining progress on something more expensive that require alien science pack.

[DaveMcW]

As the extra consumed science packs can be just regarded as the waste caused by massive research (5 scientist don't research 5 times the science ^^) and game mechanics, we will leave it as it is, so I'm moving it to not a bug until there is some good counter argument

If there is a way to work around the waste with micromanagement, players will end up doing it. As an example, Civilization 1, Civilzation 2, and Civilzation 3 would waste excess resources (shields) every time a project finished. Therefore the "best" players would micromange their cities every time a project was about to finish, and switch production from shields to food. Saving the extra shields instead of wasting them was one of the most celebrated features of Civilization 4.

Factorio is a real-time game unlike Civilization, so extreme micromanagement to eliminate all waste is not possible. But if it is possible to get an advantage from micromanaging waste, the "best" players will do it, and the players who hate micromanagement will complain about it. If you want Factorio to be a competitive game, this is not the kind of competition you should promote.

Solution1: only labs needed to finish the research start working, the rest of the labs will stay idle, so when you have 15 labs and 10 unit to finish the research, 10 labs will work, 5 will stay idle. The problem of this is, that sometimes, some of the labs could not get the science packs, so it could happen that these not-supplied labs will block the research from being finished. The same applied with lack of electricity etc. It would cause a lot of confusion, and players would post bug reports like "Labs not working".

Blocked labs and power loss are easy to fix, just pick 10 new labs to continue researching. It is fine to waste a science pack in that situation. The only thing you need to avoid is starting research with 15 "healthy" labs at the same time.