[MOD 0.16.x, 0.17.x, 0.18.x, 1.1.x] SCTM

[cyb3r]

Hi Mexmer!

After last updates (seems to me after .20 version) i can't produce any of combat sciense - recipe for weapon testing circiut board is gone from craft menu. It is still available in assembling machine i've set it before and it needs coal

Factorio.PNG (136.35 KiB) Viewed 5987 times

I'm playing SeaBlock modpack and on "bleeding edge" mods versions

[jodokus31]

I think, the best is to go back to .19 for now, if playing seablock.

[cyb3r]

The best way is to play Trainwreck's mods "snapshot" pack and don't update it before he does

Playing on latest version of mods is +10 to difficulty

[mexmer]

Hi Mexmer!

After last updates (seems to me after .20 version) i can't produce any of combat sciense - recipe for weapon testing circiut board is gone from craft menu. It is still available in assembling machine i've set it before and it needs coal

Factorio.PNG

I'm playing SeaBlock modpack and on "bleeding edge" mods versions

i already wrote it in seablock thread, don't use overhaul version with seablock, tbh best to use version from pack, that is on 1st seablock thread post.

trainwreck changes lot of stuff in mods he include to get his specific progression, because he wants it that way. you need to wait for him to reintegrate new version of my mod.

[Jugger]

Hi Mexmer,

There's deadlock with SCTM 0.16.20+ and Bob's Logistics mod with the "Inserter overhaul" option set. In this scenario the "ElectroChemics Lab" (tier 2 lab) requires the "Lab automatization" component and this in turn requires "Fast Filter inserter". This inserter comes from the "Logistics 2" research requiring "Single-use ATMOS set" (tier 2 science packs) but the "Electromagnetism Lab" (tier 1 lab) only has slot for the "Sacrificial electromagnet" (tier 1) science packs. So this tech can't be researched before building tier 2 lab, but the lab requires items that come from the tech.

[mexmer]

Hi Mexmer,

There's deadlock with SCTM 0.16.20+ and Bob's Logistics mod with the "Inserter overhaul" option set. In this scenario the "ElectroChemics Lab" (tier 2 lab) requires the "Lab automatization" component and this in turn requires "Fast Filter inserter". This inserter comes from the "Logistics 2" research requiring "Single-use ATMOS set" (tier 2 science packs) but the "Electromagnetism Lab" (tier 1 lab) only has slot for the "Sacrificial electromagnet" (tier 1) science packs. So this tech can't be researched before building tier 2 lab, but the lab requires items that come from the tech.

i see, it's now moved behind green tech, i will fix that. it was on red tech before.

[Jugger]

i see, it's now moved behind green tech, i will fix that. it was on red tech before.

Thank you very much for the fix and for your work on this mod in general!

[mexmer]

just in case anybody missed last change (0.16.26) or don't understand it.

angels research, that required bio token now requires bio science pack instead, bio science pack requires bio token and additional stuff, you can get from bioprocessing to craft.

biopack useability in T1 lab is still dependant on toggle in mod setting(which is disabled for T1 by default) like it was for biotoken.

crafting on biopack can be fully automatized with just red science (for those who doesn't know, yes white/grey assembler can craft recipe that contains 1 fluid + 2 components)

[hanli427]

Great mod, overall I really like it. But why lock military science behind advanced circuits. Isn't that pushing it too far. Before 0.16.20 I could change the lab tier required and that way I didn't need advanced circuits, but now you changed the recipe for the pack itself to require advanced circuits, with no option to change this. None that I could see at least. With seablock and bob's mods, getting to advanced circuits is a lot of effort.

Maybe your opinion is different, but in mine military science should not be placed that late. It is essential for defense and expansion early game if you play with strong enemies. At least leave an option in the settings menu to get rid of the advanced circuit from the recipe.

[jodokus31]

Great mod, overall I really like it. But why lock military science behind advanced circuits. Isn't that pushing it too far. Before 0.16.20 I could change the lab tier required and that way I didn't need advanced circuits, but now you changed the recipe for the pack itself to require advanced circuits, with no option to change this. None that I could see at least. With seablock and bob's mods, getting to advanced circuits is a lot of effort.

Maybe your opinion is different, but in mine military science should not be placed that late. It is essential for defense and expansion early game if you play with strong enemies. At least leave an option in the settings menu to get rid of the advanced circuit from the recipe.

In the seablock thread, this topic was recently discussed, too. Some like the challenge, me included, esp. in seablock, where the sniper turret is very op against worms. even a behemoth worm is not a big problem anymore...
But sure, its a tough thing and maybe a bit too much. And for regular games, its hard to get bullet damage upgrades etc.

[mexmer]

Great mod, overall I really like it. But why lock military science behind advanced circuits. Isn't that pushing it too far. Before 0.16.20 I could change the lab tier required and that way I didn't need advanced circuits, but now you changed the recipe for the pack itself to require advanced circuits, with no option to change this. None that I could see at least. With seablock and bob's mods, getting to advanced circuits is a lot of effort.

Maybe your opinion is different, but in mine military science should not be placed that late. It is essential for defense and expansion early game if you play with strong enemies. At least leave an option in the settings menu to get rid of the advanced circuit from the recipe.

recipe for military pack for bobs+ angels without is grenade + gun turrer + piercing amo which translates into few copper plates + little more iron plates + handfull of coal and single steel plate.

all of this you can have not with green, but with red tech, only exception is piercing ammo and grenade, but those you get from military 2, which also unlocks military pack research. that's far too easy.

yes first i thought blue boards should be enough, but then, problem is blue board is red tech, not green, it's too low technology, and higher tier metals used (invar/brass), simply can't compensate for that. ECB is actually only complex enough thing in whole pack it puts it somewhere between green and blue pack in terms of cost.

sniper turrets are cheap for what they do. you need only 100 military science for them, and their construction is ridiculously cheap. still before you need military pack, you get 2 upgrades in damage gun turrets not to mention you get mk2 turret, thats overall + 40% damage just on green tech, you think it's small boost? not to mention, you can use piercing amo. and after unlocking sniper turrest, first two damage boost are again red/green only. i didn't want to mess with tech tree, so i left it as is. so what millitary pack does is slowing down your progress towards sniper/laser turrets, and getting past +50% damage boost.

and reason i did put military pack into tier 3 labs? because even with ECB, people still could get sniper turret fast, because when you get into ECB production, you don't produce just few pieces, you produce lot of them, because many mk3 building, or even some mk2 require it. use of ECB is based on simple fact, that you should already have decent production of it. but if you want to rush it, it's harder now.

[hanli427]

Yes, admittedly the military science pack was a little easy, at least in context for what you are trying to do with the mod pack. But to me it was always meant to be early, just a step above green tech. Putting it on par with blue tech is too high, in my opinion. Requiring brass and invar is still a decent step up. Yes, you disagree, I know.

But you say that regular turrets with a few damage upgrades are enough for early game. I dare you to deal with behemoth worms without sniper turrets. Maybe there is a way, but I can't get close enough with regular turrets. Damage isn't the issue, range is. The behemoths outrange even the sniper turrets range of 30, and they kill you in 2-3 hits, even with the invar armor, which is the best you can hope for. With sniper turrets, at least you have a chance. Sure, on Seablock you should be able to reach advanced circuits before seeing behemoths, but large clusters of small worms can kill you and destroy your turrets quickly as well, and there are many other deadly worms as well.

It is a matter of taste, and my point is that you do have the option in the settings menu to change the lab tier for military science to a tier 2 lab. Before this update, that allowed a player to build military science without advanced circuits, and to me that choice was fine. But now, this setting is pointless because the science pack recipe still requires the circuits. At least allow this setting to change the recipe for the science pack as well. I could always mod your mod, or use long reach and water fill, or play without enemies. But why not allow the option at least, to drop the tier of the military science.

[mexmer]

Yes, admittedly the military science pack was a little easy, at least in context for what you are trying to do with the mod pack. But to me it was always meant to be early, just a step above green tech. Putting it on par with blue tech is too high, in my opinion. Requiring brass and invar is still a decent step up. Yes, you disagree, I know.

But you say that regular turrets with a few damage upgrades are enough for early game. I dare you to deal with behemoth worms without sniper turrets. Maybe there is a way, but I can't get close enough with regular turrets. Damage isn't the issue, range is. The behemoths outrange even the sniper turrets range of 30, and they kill you in 2-3 hits, even with the invar armor, which is the best you can hope for. With sniper turrets, at least you have a chance. Sure, on Seablock you should be able to reach advanced circuits before seeing behemoths, but large clusters of small worms can kill you and destroy your turrets quickly as well, and there are many other deadly worms as well.

It is a matter of taste, and my point is that you do have the option in the settings menu to change the lab tier for military science to a tier 2 lab. Before this update, that allowed a player to build military science without advanced circuits, and to me that choice was fine. But now, this setting is pointless because the science pack recipe still requires the circuits. At least allow this setting to change the recipe for the science pack as well. I could always mod your mod, or use long reach and water fill, or play without enemies. But why not allow the option at least, to drop the tier of the military science.

while i can see your point, did you really read what i wrote?

Sniper Turret research is 100 x military science, that translates into 100 ECB. if i leave it to blue circuit boards, at time you unlock military, you already have box full of them, so you have sniper turrets in minute after unlocking military.

i can understand people playing on hell mode might have issue with this, but they play on hell mode for a reason.

anyways, you can always ask @TrainWreck to do some additional tuning for SeaBlock, if you think it's too harsh. For my regular mod set it is just enough. SeaBlock is very specific in conditions and progression.

btw. i plan in near future rework technology unlocks (separate technology tree, some more dependencies and such), i might then change some recipes, although not much.

[mexmer]

just one final note to military requirement. i would say blame bob.

i set military circuit to require RED chips in vanilla, yes they are unlocked by advanced electronics (which unlocks also blue science), but they are not that pricey, it's just plastic, which adds some complexity to that. for vanilla military is very viable either at tier 2 or tier 3.

if you playing with bobelectronics, red chips are replaced by ECB ... ECB production complexity is that much higher, compared to red chip, i felt multiple times, red chips should be replaced by blue boards in bobs in many cases ... but that's just my opinion.

after research tree rework, i might replace ECB with CB for tier 2, because there still will be additional cost in research and other stuff, but that will come, when it's done.

[mexmer]

as some might have noticed, on monday i had updated first post on thread with - put science unlocks into separate tech tree (with dependencies).

it's quite similar to what they announced on friday in FFF (4 days after my update)

might seem quite redundant since it will be coming into .17, but since we don't know when 0.17 will hit, and also my research tree also contains research lab and support for few other mods.

research tree will also include new icons from @Daemoria

when it will be finished? well i hope, before 0.17 come out probly midle or end of next week, while doing basic part was easy, function that will properly search trough tree and fix dependencies is not (there is lot of mods outside, for some i can do manual correction, because it's just handful of references, for others ....)

it will break science even more, although i have prepared migration script, that will unlock automatically already unlocked labs and research packs.

[mexmer]

version 0.16.28 with even more broken science just released.

backup your save before update and report any problems with migration scripts

and yes, this makes science even "harder"

if you have too many mods altering science, it can lead to deadlocks .. only pysuite, omnisuite, bobmods and angels were tested for that.

if you don''t want too many lines in technology GUI, disable science pack connection in mod settings (default is enabled, in vanilla it makes sense).

[Light]

Decided to give this mod a try since I hoped it made science a little more involved, until I saw just how punishingly unforgiving the military science pack was to create. There's no chance that would work with high science pack requirements without a lot of struggle to not only get the resources, but also all the research to even build these things before the biters get out of hand.

This was with the 0.16.26 version since your latest one throws up an error if omni isn't installed, but I'm unsure how that could make things much harder than it already seemed to be.

[mexmer]

Decided to give this mod a try since I hoped it made science a little more involved, until I saw just how punishingly unforgiving the military science pack was to create. There's no chance that would work with high science pack requirements without a lot of struggle to not only get the resources, but also all the research to even build these things before the biters get out of hand.

This was with the 0.16.26 version since your latest one throws up an error if omni isn't installed, but I'm unsure how that could make things much harder than it already seemed to be.

hmm, this weird, omnipack should be enabled only if omnimatter_science mod is installed ... i will need recheck code, it doesn't do this for me, when i have only bobs and angels.

as for miliary - you can set military to tier 2, if you think it's too hard ... there is setting for that in mod settings.
it will do 3 things
1) add military pack to green lab (t2)
2) remove blue science requirement (that's obvious for t2)
3) replace ECB with CB in circuit 3

but then again, military was T3 even in uberwaffe original mod, just intermediates didn't match T3 technology (they were mostly T1, some T2)
in version 0.16.1 i did add optional toggle to enable military in t2 lab (default is still t3)
when i rebalanced science for vanilla, sideefect was, that in bobs advanced circuit gets replaced with ECB, so even if T2, military still required ecb, which is unlocked at same time as blue science ... for me this was no issue, because only interesting thing in early military pack unlocks is sniper tower, which is not that hard to get even with ECB.

since new science tree delays unlocking science packs (even if you go T2 military), i decided to ease T2 military, and gave circuit 3 blue boards on bobs ... there is no easy way on vanilla, since advanced circuit is green tech ...

[mexmer]

ok, issue with omnipack is fixed in 0.16.29
i always had omnicrystal installed along omniscience, so didn't notice, omni-pack doesn't show up with one of them missing, always assumed it only needs omniscience, since that is where pack is defined.

[mexmer]

just reminder for seablock users, do not update, it will break (again). you need to wait for @Trainwreck to adopt changes in new version.