[0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[mrvn]

For hiding the yellow belts you should really consider having underground and splitter on black ones.
When playing Xander there are also lower grade belts and not having splitters and undergrounds makes it really annoying to use them.
If black belts will become "fully featured" it will make it much less annoying that upgrade to yellows will require a lot preparation.

Now we only need to get Factorio devs to make belt upgrading easier

I see that as an extra incentive to crack on and unlock the yellow ones. Then you can use the black belts for cheapness but still build undergrounds/splitters for where you need them. Adding black UG/splitter seems pointless to me since no-one in their right mind would want to use them and getting yellow is a matter of minutes.

If by minutes you mean hours or days. Getting yellow splitters with Bobs+Angels is not a matter of minutes. Even less so with SeaBlock.

As for being pointless: Why would they be pointless? They would be slower than yellow belts but they would function perfectly fine. If you have a black belt of stuff then why ever would you want a yellow splitter to split that into two black belts? That would be a total waste of resources while a black splitter would be perfect.

[bobingabout]

It all depends what I actually do.
I will most likely lock yellow belts behind Logistics 1 research either way. (And hope it doesn't break other mods)
Option 1 is just to basically leave things as they are now, slow speed black with no splitter or underground belts, encouraging you to go and unlock yellow belts.
Option 2 is to balance the tiers into 10 items per second per tier, in which case black(or grey, or white, whichever you want to call it.) is effectively a whole tier, and would end up getting splitter and UG belts. it would also definitely be used as an item to upgrade to yellow too.

If I do go with option 2... where do I put the splitter and UG belts? are they just free to craft from the start, or do I lock them behind a research wall? Logistics 1 is already pretty easy to unlock.
As for the addition of a tier 0 UG belt... simple maths time. current ranges are 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, so we take 25 and divide by 6 to get 4.166. lets go 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 25 (because I don't want to break someone using max range of highest tier).
However, the way ranges are measured means with 4 you only have a gap of 3 between the entrances, perhaps internally it should be 5, 9, 13, 17, 21 and 25 to give you a gap of 4 per tier, and the highest tier keeps it's range and fits the pattern.
And while I'm at it, give pipes a similar treatment, changing the base of 10 to 11, and adding one to every tier so it's 11 for iron, copper and stone, 16 for steel, bronze and plastic, 21 for titanium, ceramic and brass and 31 for tungsten pipes.

Gah, those pipe tiers are pretty crap looking back. I look at the materials now and come up with...
T0 = Iron, Copper, Stone.
T1 = Steel, Bronze
T2 = Brass, Plastic
T3 = Titanium, Ceramic, Tungsten.
There's really no reason why Tungsten should be so awesome in this list.

[RocketManChronicles]

It all depends what I actually do.
I will most likely lock yellow belts behind Logistics 1 research either way. (And hope it doesn't break other mods)
Option 1 is just to basically leave things as they are now, slow speed black with no splitter or underground belts, encouraging you to go and unlock yellow belts.
Option 2 is to balance the tiers into 10 items per second per tier, in which case black(or grey, or white, whichever you want to call it.) is effectively a whole tier, and would end up getting splitter and UG belts. it would also definitely be used as an item to upgrade to yellow too.

If I do go with option 2... where do I put the splitter and UG belts? are they just free to craft from the start, or do I lock them behind a research wall? Logistics 1 is already pretty easy to unlock.
As for the addition of a tier 0 UG belt... simple maths time. current ranges are 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, so we take 25 and divide by 6 to get 4.166. lets go 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 25 (because I don't want to break someone using max range of highest tier).
However, the way ranges are measured means with 4 you only have a gap of 3 between the entrances, perhaps internally it should be 5, 9, 13, 17, 21 and 25 to give you a gap of 4 per tier, and the highest tier keeps it's range and fits the pattern.

I like the idea of locking yellow belts (with underground belts and splitters) behind Logistics 1 AND not having either UG or splitters for the black belts. this way you have some wild spaghetti for initial automation and have an incentive to go for Logistics 1. Besides, it's not really that hard to have separate belts laying around at the start.

And while I'm at it, give pipes a similar treatment, changing the base of 10 to 11, and adding one to every tier so it's 11 for iron, copper and stone, 16 for steel, bronze and plastic, 21 for titanium, ceramic and brass and 31 for tungsten pipes.

Gah, those pipe tiers are pretty crap looking back. I look at the materials now and come up with...
T0 = Iron, Copper, Stone.
T1 = Steel, Bronze
T2 = Brass, Plastic
T3 = Titanium, Ceramic, Tungsten.
There's really no reason why Tungsten should be so awesome in this list.

But the jet black color of tungsten pipes everywhere looks AMAZING! Although, as I like to have "decorative" areas in my bases, having the option to have the bright white Titanium pipes or the cool smooth texture of the ceramic pipes for different applications gives me options without losing or sacrificing functionality. The range of 31 really helps when routing pipes under my 4-track rail lines.

[mrvn]

If black UG are free then they should be shorter than your pattern. I would make them shorter even if they cost something. The point of T0 UGs would be to cross 1-2 belts because sometimes you just have to. But not cross under assemblers or build a massive main bus. The short range should leave plenty of incentive to research yellow UGs and build the infrastructure to produce them.

Locking UGs and splitter behind a tech is a good idea too. It doesn't have to be expensive or difficult. They do represent an advancement and allow more complex factory designs. They make feeding coal into furnaces automatically practicable. Or splitting your iron plate output between research and belt production. and so on. Make them work for it, at least a little bit.

[RocketManChronicles]

If black UG are free then they should be shorter than your pattern. I would make them shorter even if they cost something. The point of T0 UGs would be to cross 1-2 belts because sometimes you just have to. But not cross under assemblers or build a massive main bus. The short range should leave plenty of incentive to research yellow UGs and build the infrastructure to produce them.

Locking UGs and splitter behind a tech is a good idea too. It doesn't have to be expensive or difficult. They do represent an advancement and allow more complex factory designs. They make feeding coal into furnaces automatically practicable. Or splitting your iron plate output between research and belt production. and so on. Make them work for it, at least a little bit.

the black underground belt to only be able to cross one belt is both funny and probably a good idea! Still works, but gives incentive to upgrade quickly.

[mrvn]

I've been thinking about the cost of underground belts.

If a yellow underground belt goes below 4 belts it has a total length of 5 (half of the entry and exit is underground too). If a black underground belt goes below 2 belt is has a total length of 3. So if the black underground belt includes the material to build the tunnel then you need 2 black UGs to build one yellow UG tunnel wise (with some tunnel left over). Or some more stone (if stone is what is used to make the tunnel in a black UG).

Similar thoughts would go towards the red/blue/green/... UGs. The tunnel doesn't magically get longer because you add some steel gears or titan bearings. But that's just a thought.

[orzelek]

I have just noticed new pollution multiplier on coal.
Does it affect each and every entity that uses it? Can we see it somehow - it doesn't seem to affect the tooltip for boiler for example.

It's a pretty big increase in pollution at start if it's all multiplied by 3 (assuming 200% that works like other things in game so it's (1+2)*emissions in formula). It's a significant increase in biter attacks and evolution increase and I don't see a nice alternative for coal for quite some time in tech tree. Unless a switch to burn wood from greenhouses - that would be a lot of wood.
It is a pretty strong incentive to switch to solar ASAP.

[bobingabout]

I have just noticed new pollution multiplier on coal.
Does it affect each and every entity that uses it? Can we see it somehow - it doesn't seem to affect the tooltip for boiler for example.

It's a pretty big increase in pollution at start if it's all multiplied by 3 (assuming 200% that works like other things in game so it's (1+2)*emissions in formula). It's a significant increase in biter attacks and evolution increase and I don't see a nice alternative for coal for quite some time in tech tree. Unless a switch to burn wood from greenhouses - that would be a lot of wood.
It is a pretty strong incentive to switch to solar ASAP.

I wrote the entire thing for this myself.
Fuel items, fuel fluids and venting recipes all have multipliers now. unfortunately I was only able to access the tooltips to fuel items.

The formula is pretty simple, it's literally a multiplier, so if it says 200%, then it produces double what would normally be produced if there was no multiplier set.

[steinio]

Bob, if you change UG length, please don't make the vanilla ones shorter as vanilla because it may break all current setups.
For black UG i would also favor one tile spacing to allow jumping under another belt but keep the weakness.

Are the inserter color changes active now? Can't see any differences.

I got used to the bronce plates in red belts but they a bit more difficulty in Angel's.

[bobingabout]

Bob, if you change UG length, please don't make the vanilla ones shorter as vanilla because it may break all current setups.
For black UG i would also favor one tile spacing to allow jumping under another belt but keep the weakness.

Are the inserter color changes active now? Can't see any differences.

I got used to the bronce plates in red belts but they a bit more difficulty in Angel's.

The base ones wouldn't be shorter, they'd be longer, because they'd be on top of whatever speed I chose for black.

for inserters, if you want the changes, don't forget to turn on "I don't hate bob" mode.

[steinio]

for inserters, if you want the changes, don't forget to turn on "I don't hate bob" mode.

Hate is a strong word. It's not the case but a little disagreement.

[Karlito15]

One argument for the black undergrounds and splitter:
The yellow belts now cost tin (or steel with seablock), and thats very nasty, especially when playing with seablock! So you have the easiest undergrounds and splitter locked behind a pretty huge wall (and they are definitely not reachable in minutes...)

So I'm for the option of black undergrounds and splitter, if you don't need them, you can switch instantly to yellow if you want.

[mexmer]

guess optional swithc to enable/disable UG/splitter on tier 0, with default off, might make most people happy

[bobingabout]

One argument for the black undergrounds and splitter:
The yellow belts now cost tin (or steel with seablock), and thats very nasty, especially when playing with seablock! So you have the easiest undergrounds and splitter locked behind a pretty huge wall (and they are definitely not reachable in minutes...)

So I'm for the option of black undergrounds and splitter, if you don't need them, you can switch instantly to yellow if you want.

honestly, Steel is a bit above the intended tech level for yellow belts. when I originally wrote the yellow belt recipe is did only cost more iron. However, I am aware that some of these mods do lock Tin behind a research, where in my mod it's as low tech as you can get, mine it and smelt it, like iron and copper.

guess optional swithc to enable/disable UG/splitter on tier 0, with default off, might make most people happy

Yeah, I was thinking of doing a poll to ask if I should go with the overhaul (black UG and splitter, speed and UG distance rework... etc) but then I realised... lets just make it a setting so people can decide which way they want to play it.
Though, considering I've already forced the belt cost shake up, I'd choose to have the default on.

[mrvn]

Thanks bob. That really is the option that can make everybody happy.

[arbarbonif]

Can you make a splitter that doesn't have any of the filtering/prioritizing options? I think a black splitter without those features and a black underground with a gap of 1 or 2 would fit in perfectly. If you can't, I would keep the splitter at yellow+ but still add in the short underground.

[Jackalope_Gaming]

There is room for a "basic logistics" science a la AAI Industry, so it could work for basic underground belt and splitter.

[bobingabout]

Can you make a splitter that doesn't have any of the filtering/prioritizing options?

I haven't looked into it, but I don't think that's an option.

[pezzawinkle]

a simple alternative (and please yell at me if this sounds stupid, i may not have read all of the discussion, but i did skim a few points that sounded interesting)...

Possibly replace the Tin with copper (or stone) for the T1 belt recipe, everyone screams for a copper sinc early in the play-through (especially in an AB game-its almost as bad as crushed stone early)...
TBH, tin is not that far down the rabbit hole in angels, its quite far down in AAII or Omnimatter, but that is because reasons... if you do add the addition's to the black belt, that would be a good compromise for the "I love burner phase" style mods.
Alternatively i'm sure it would be more appropriate to ask Angel be kind enough to give us access to Tin from the start...
I do agree that in just regular Bobs, Tin is super low tech, and more than suitable, and having a use outside electronics/wires is not a bad call.

[bobingabout]

a simple alternative (and please yell at me if this sounds stupid, i may not have read all of the discussion, but i did skim a few points that sounded interesting)...

Possibly replace the Tin with copper (or stone) for the T1 belt recipe, everyone screams for a copper sinc early in the play-through (especially in an AB game-its almost as bad as crushed stone early)...
TBH, tin is not that far down the rabbit hole in angels, its quite far down in AAII or Omnimatter, but that is because reasons... if you do add the addition's to the black belt, that would be a good compromise for the "I love burner phase" style mods.
Alternatively i'm sure it would be more appropriate to ask Angel be kind enough to give us access to Tin from the start...
I do agree that in just regular Bobs, Tin is super low tech, and more than suitable, and having a use outside electronics/wires is not a bad call.

It's not stupid.

To be honest, I didn't know just how far down the tree Tin was in these other mods. It's not all that easy to force certain materials if certain mods are installed or not, it's easier for the other mod to override what I do. I know AAII already changes my tin plates to steel if yellow belt uses Tin, but it would probably be a better idea if it used Copper instead. I don't really have any contact with Mr AAI, but I'll talk to Omni and see what he thinks on the subject. I'm happy with where it ends up in Angels.