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[RocketManChronicles]

Oh man, you have been busy!

Inserters themselves are part of the Logistics mod.
I am not sure how I should handle the differences for when the inserters mod is or isn't installed, because when it isn't installed, you want long inserters, when it is, you don't.

This is why the top GUI used to be part of the Logistics mod, would be simple if it was still there, because then you'd have long inserters via the top menu, and wouldn't need to bother with multiple entities.
Perhaps I should include that top GUI in both mods?

I suggest both, but would that be a conflict in the lua code?

On that note, inserters will have a name to match their belt. Currently, this is Standard (no name), Fast, Express, Faster and Extremely fast. I am open to suggestions, but what I have written down at the moment is... Standard (no name), Fast, Express, Turbo, Extreme. Not too keen on having 2 starting with E in there. Someone suggested Ultimate. (SFETU!)

I like it! Does this pertain as the following? Standard (yellow), Fast (Red), Express (Blue), Turbo (Green), and Extreme (Purple). I like this idea as to help aide in having the correct inserters matching the belts. However, I am also assuming that the inserters one either side can work, just not as efficiently or effectively. For example, I am using Express belts, and I have some older parts of the factory still using Fast inserters, they cannot keep up with the belt and either miss items or do not compress fully, and in a newer area, I have Turbo inserters which are waiting on the belt. Is that what you are shooting for?

I'll also be completely redoing all the belt(and UG belt, and splitter) recipes as a minimum. it costs half a gear and half a plate to make a standard belt (1 of each gives 2), which, okay fair enough, can't really change it because it's an essential part of research, and feels expensive when you're just starting out. But then it costs 5 gears to upgrade each belt to a fast belt, and 20 plus lube to upgrade that to express. (And Express belt is the only recipe in this whole chain with an expensive mode recipe, even the express splitter or UG belt don't. I hate this inconsistency) so an express belt contains half an iron plate and 25 and a half gears.

The plan is to make fast belts cost 5 steel gears AND a steel plate (or more than one?), and then the previous tier belt would be an option. then 5 brass gears, some steel bearings and an aluminium plate for Express (no lube here), and then titanium plate, bearings and gears for green belts (bearings contain lube), then same with nitinol for Purple. All stages, previous tier is OPTIONAL.

For the UG belt and Splitter, the recipe will be different depending on the option. if you go for including previous tier, then as now you'll upgrade the previous tier splitter into the new one, with appropriate costs to upgrade the belts within it, and the splitter itself, such as a few extra plates and electronics (at the moment, the prices to upgrade some of these things is way out, express splitter costs 80 gears, which is either too much for standard recipe, or not enough for expensive)
If you have the option turned off, then it will cost 2(Probably) belts of the correct tier, with electronics and extra plates etc. The price in the current tier of materials should in theory be the same either way, the only difference is if it costs the previous tier or not.

There is also the option of adding in brass bearings to fill the gap with steel, because that tier 3 uses 3 different materials, where every other tier uses only 1 type. The brass bearing could require lube to make like the higher tier ones do and therefore express inserters would still cost lube to build.

I like where you are going for this. Like you, I always found it odd how I had Express belts still made of very little plates compared to gears; although the gears were expensive as two iron plates per one iron gear. Your recipe for Fast belts is perfect, 5 steel gears and one steel plate would feel right. I don't think it to be a real stretch to have it require 5 steel gears and 2 steel plates. I can see your concern about having 3 different materials for Express belts, but the removal of lube makes this much easier to attain than it is now. The logistics to have a fluid used in the recipe is a time consuming one at this point. I suggest to make the recipe 5 brass gears, 2 steel bearings, and 1 (2 if you go with 2 steel for fast belt) aluminum plate. I am right at this point in my current 0.16 modded playthrough; just researched the Express belts. I am just getting aluminum production online, already have brass, and no lube production. So, these materials would drop right in right now as proposed.

As for the "OPTIONAL" idea; I don't know. I really liked having to use previous tier belts to upgrade with more materials to reach the next tier. As I replaced old belts, they would be used to make new belts. However, I do like the new idea that you are making an entirely new belt at each tier. So then my question is: are you aiming for two recipes or a checkbox in the mods options?

Inserter recipes will get the same treatment too, iron, steel, brass/aluminium, titanium, nitinol.

Love it. As mentioned above, the materials would fall right into place. Would these require the previous tier to make as is now or are you considering to change it like the belts?

I guess I could change the standard belt to cost something more pricey like 5 gears and a plate on par with what I want to do for the additional tiers if I make a tier 0 black coloured (to match burner inserter) basic belt (And change the science pack to cost this), but that depends if it is possible to make a belt move by say... half a pixel per tick. Someone also suggests belts should cost some rubber. Some people also suggest I should make belt tiers double in speed every step, not just add the same 1/32 each time, which means express would move at the current speed of green, but then green and purple could be silly fast. purple would be 16/32, which is more than 3 times the current speed, and would need an inserter with rotation of 0.112, which is higher than my current top tier inserter. Also anything faster than 9/32 would see inserters dropping more than 1 items on the belt per tick, so, that could(completely untested) be bad for belt compression.

A tier 0 black belt would be cool. Can the belt go that slow? What is the time(?) that the current starndard yellow belt is set at? Are you suggesting this tier 0 black belt (costing 1/2 plate and 1/2 gear) to be used in the Green Science pack? And then have the Standard belt (yellow) cost 1 iron plate and 5 iron gears? And then you go up to 5 steel gears and 1 steel plate for Fast belts? Oooo, that could be interesting.

[mrvn]

How about two recipes. One to make a belt from scratch and one to upgrade?

For example a belt needs iron plates and iron gears. A fast belt needs iron plates and steal gears. But you can also take a belt and steal gears to make a fast belt and iron gears.

[bobingabout]

This is why the top GUI used to be part of the Logistics mod, would be simple if it was still there, because then you'd have long inserters via the top menu, and wouldn't need to bother with multiple entities.
Perhaps I should include that top GUI in both mods?

I suggest both, but would that be a conflict in the lua code?

If I just have it in both places, yes it would.
But I could just have a check in Logistics to see if Inserters is installed, and if it is, do nothing.

So then my question is: are you aiming for two recipes or a checkbox in the mods options?
Love it. As mentioned above, the materials would fall right into place. Would these require the previous tier to make as is now or are you considering to change it like the belts?

How about two recipes. One to make a belt from scratch and one to upgrade?

For example a belt needs iron plates and iron gears. A fast belt needs iron plates and steal gears. But you can also take a belt and steal gears to make a fast belt and iron gears.

I've considered that before, it's done on the merged modules, it doesn't play well.
I'll stick to what I did for Robots, and basically have it as an option for you to choose if it should cost the previous tier or not. Checkbox option in the mod options page. Belts and Inserters likely having their own option each.

A tier 0 black belt would be cool. Can the belt go that slow? What is the time(?) that the current starndard yellow belt is set at? Are you suggesting this tier 0 black belt (costing 1/2 plate and 1/2 gear) to be used in the Green Science pack? And then have the Standard belt (yellow) cost 1 iron plate and 5 iron gears? And then you go up to 5 steel gears and 1 steel plate for Fast belts? Oooo, that could be interesting.

I would need to do some testing to see if the belt can go that slow.
Current belt speeds are basically 1 pixel per tick for yellow (A tile is 32 pixels, and everything is measured in tiles, so 1/32 is 1 pixel per tick), 2 per tick for red, 3 for blue, 4 for green and 5 for purple.
Yes to everything else.

[RocketManChronicles]

So then my question is: are you aiming for two recipes or a checkbox in the mods options?
Love it. As mentioned above, the materials would fall right into place. Would these require the previous tier to make as is now or are you considering to change it like the belts?

How about two recipes. One to make a belt from scratch and one to upgrade?

For example a belt needs iron plates and iron gears. A fast belt needs iron plates and steal gears. But you can also take a belt and steal gears to make a fast belt and iron gears.

I've considered that before, it's done on the merged modules, it doesn't play well.
I'll stick to what I did for Robots, and basically have it as an option for you to choose if it should cost the previous tier or not. Checkbox option in the mod options page. Belts and Inserters likely having their own option each.

Good solution. I will be on the boat that checks the box to use the previous tier.

A tier 0 black belt would be cool. Can the belt go that slow? What is the time(?) that the current starndard yellow belt is set at? Are you suggesting this tier 0 black belt (costing 1/2 plate and 1/2 gear) to be used in the Green Science pack? And then have the Standard belt (yellow) cost 1 iron plate and 5 iron gears? And then you go up to 5 steel gears and 1 steel plate for Fast belts? Oooo, that could be interesting.

I would need to do some testing to see if the belt can go that slow.
Current belt speeds are basically 1 pixel per tick for yellow (A tile is 32 pixels, and everything is measured in tiles, so 1/32 is 1 pixel per tick), 2 per tick for red, 3 for blue, 4 for green and 5 for purple.
Yes to everything else.

I just learned something about the game! Did not know that the tiles were 32 pixels. Let us know how the tests go!

[ukezi]

while we are at it and are making new entities, a "MK1.5" electronic assembly machine with speed 1.5 and costing tier 2 electronics, corresponding to assembler MK2 would be nice. Also making that color progression to grey, red, blue,... I don't know who of the designers did the dissension to go yellow, red, blue with the belts and go gray,blue, yellow with the assemblers.

[bobingabout]

while we are at it and are making new entities, a "MK1.5" electronic assembly machine with speed 1.5 and costing tier 2 electronics, corresponding to assembler MK2 would be nice. Also making that color progression to grey, red, blue,... I don't know who of the designers did the dissension to go yellow, red, blue with the belts and go grey,blue, yellow with the assemblers.

That's part of the reason why most of my tiers seem inconsistent. assembling machines to grey, blue, yellow, purple, red, green? or is it red purple green? if you include burner inserters, the tiers are all exactly the same colours, just in a different order.


EDIT:
belt speed of 0.5/32 works, half the speed of a yellow belt, actually looks good.
belt speed of 16/32 (doubling every level) works too... but since the inserter will only place upto 1 item per tick, and 16/32 would need 1.777... per tick, it leaves huge gaps in the belt.
Only tested belt speeds, other things like splitters and UG belts might not work as expected here.

[ukezi]

I suspect that with all the optimization the actual shown position has not much to do with the internal model. And most of the numbers seam to be floating point of some kind. I think you can go down with speed as far as you like and suspect that the splitter can maximally handel a item per lane and tick.

[bobingabout]

I suspect that with all the optimization the actual shown position has not much to do with the internal model. And most of the numbers seam to be floating point of some kind. I think you can go down with speed as far as you like and suspect that the splitter can maximally handel a item per lane and tick.

Which sugests it should work with slower, but not faster.
I already said I've been seeing issues using a 16/32 speed belt. Yeah, when there's a backup, the belt compresses, but the inserters don't place things on the belt compressed.
8/32 should be about the fastest a belt can run effectively, but would need tests to see how an UG belt and splitter running at that speed handles things, not that I anticipate any issues with the UG belt.

[mrvn]

I suspect that with all the optimization the actual shown position has not much to do with the internal model. And most of the numbers seam to be floating point of some kind. I think you can go down with speed as far as you like and suspect that the splitter can maximally handel a item per lane and tick.

Which sugests it should work with slower, but not faster.
I already said I've been seeing issues using a 16/32 speed belt. Yeah, when there's a backup, the belt compresses, but the inserters don't place things on the belt compressed.
8/32 should be about the fastest a belt can run effectively, but would need tests to see how an UG belt and splitter running at that speed handles things, not that I anticipate any issues with the UG belt.

That's why you have multiple inserters. Do they fill the gaps correctly with 0.16.28 now?

[fiery_salmon]

Tiny detail - but is there any reason why steam engine MK2 (and other steam engines and some other complex products) are made in default 0.5 time? It is a bit weird to see them build almost instantly.

[bobingabout]

Tiny detail - but is there any reason why steam engine MK2 (and other steam engines and some other complex products) are made in default 0.5 time? It is a bit weird to see them build almost instantly.

Mostly only because that's what they used to cost and haven't been updated yet.

Looking back at Generators is actually on my list, I'm thinking of making them 4 tiers to match the boilers.

[mrvn]

Tiny detail - but is there any reason why steam engine MK2 (and other steam engines and some other complex products) are made in default 0.5 time? It is a bit weird to see them build almost instantly.

Mostly only because that's what they used to cost and haven't been updated yet.

Looking back at Generators is actually on my list, I'm thinking of making them 4 tiers to match the boilers.

I wonder though if it would be possible for a steam engine mk2 to take 250° steam, produce some energy and then output 175°steam to the steam engine mk1 after it.

So instead of simply replacing the old steam engine you would add to the setup to gain more efficiency from the boiler mk2.

[bobingabout]

Tiny detail - but is there any reason why steam engine MK2 (and other steam engines and some other complex products) are made in default 0.5 time? It is a bit weird to see them build almost instantly.

Mostly only because that's what they used to cost and haven't been updated yet.

Looking back at Generators is actually on my list, I'm thinking of making them 4 tiers to match the boilers.

I wonder though if it would be possible for a steam engine mk2 to take 250° steam, produce some energy and then output 175°steam to the steam engine mk1 after it.

So instead of simply replacing the old steam engine you would add to the setup to gain more efficiency from the boiler mk2.

there is no logic in place for this. it simply uses steam. to do such a thing would require a separate fluid box for input and output.

I mean... scripting could do something, but, you know my stance on that.

[Feye]

[..]It's a closed loop with everything running nearly 100%. And the only thing being vented is oxygen.[..]

Yeah I thought something like this would be possible. Like I said in my first post, I just slapped stuff down to make it work *somehow*.
I bet you could even use the Oxygen from this to process Nickel or Lead, or probably something else I can't recall right now.

It still no reason to not include voids for the aforementioned gases for me personally since you can use the ones that do in other processes aswell, but it's good to know you did that on purpose

[bobingabout]

The planned changes to Logistics is slowly getting done. The belts are done, HD graphics and recipe revamp are in my local copy.

Last night was mostly spend re-implementing a cut down pre-place inserter GUI into Logistics mod. Same button at the top of the screen, but the only option is to turn on over-rides, with a long(or not long) inserter over-ride. This is so you can still place long inserters if you don't have bob inserters installed.
I'm slowly working through my list of changes to make to inserters, how does this sound? (Doesn't include recipe changes, only the changes to the inserters themselves.)

Code: Select all

White base and stripes for filter.
Stack inserters have their own fat hand style.

Clone long handed inserter to Red inserter named fast, without the long ranges
Adjust the long inserter item to build a red inserter
Change fast replace of long inserter to normal.
(Result so far, 2 red inserter entities, one long, one normal, but only one set of everything else so you'll only be able to place the new one. This is to not break old saves by making long inserters suddenly turn to regulars if there are no override rules in place)

Rename fast inserter to Express inserter.
Recolour filter inserter to be blue with a white base
Recolour stack inserter to blue
Recolour stack filter inserter to keep it's base, but have a blue arm
(All current endgame inserters will be named Express and be blue to match blue belts)

Recolour and rename express inserter set (my endgame set) to purple/ultimate

Add green/Turbo inserter set.
(new set between base end game, and my end game)

Move fast inserter unlock from Logistics to Logistics 3
Move long handed inserter unlock from Long inserters to Logistics 2.

Put unlocks of Turbo inserters on Logistics 4
Add turbo stack inserter unlocks to stack inserter 2.
get rid of express inserter tech and add them to Logistics 5
Move Express->Ultimate stack inserters from stack inserters 2 to stack inserters 3
Change requirement of Stack inserters from Logistics 2 to 3.
add requirement for Logistics 4 on Stack 2, and Logistics 5 on Stack 3.
(Logistics 5 will need to be available even if Purple belts are turned off, or just get rid of the option to turn it off entirely, it adds a lot of spag)

[RocketManChronicles]

The planned changes to Logistics is slowly getting done. The belts are done, HD graphics and recipe revamp are in my local copy.

Excellent news! Does this include your tier 0 black belts? If so, will I have to change the assembling machines making these for science packs?

Last night was mostly spend re-implementing a cut down pre-place inserter GUI into Logistics mod. Same button at the top of the screen, but the only option is to turn on over-rides, with a long(or not long) inserter over-ride. This is so you can still place long inserters if you don't have bob inserters installed.
I'm slowly working through my list of changes to make to inserters, how does this sound? (Doesn't include recipe changes, only the changes to the inserters themselves.)

Code: Select all

White base and stripes for filter.
Stack inserters have their own fat hand style.

Clone long handed inserter to Red inserter named fast, without the long ranges
Adjust the long inserter item to build a red inserter
Change fast replace of long inserter to normal.
(Result so far, 2 red inserter entities, one long, one normal, but only one set of everything else so you'll only be able to place the new one. This is to not break old saves by making long inserters suddenly turn to regulars if there are no override rules in place)

Rename fast inserter to Express inserter.
Recolour filter inserter to be blue with a white base
Recolour stack inserter to blue
Recolour stack filter inserter to keep it's base, but have a blue arm
(All current endgame inserters will be named Express and be blue to match blue belts)

Recolour and rename express inserter set (my endgame set) to purple/ultimate

Add green/Turbo inserter set.
(new set between base end game, and my end game)

Move fast inserter unlock from Logistics to Logistics 3
Move long handed inserter unlock from Long inserters to Logistics 2.

Put unlocks of Turbo inserters on Logistics 4
Add turbo stack inserter unlocks to stack inserter 2.
get rid of express inserter tech and add them to Logistics 5
Move Express->Ultimate stack inserters from stack inserters 2 to stack inserters 3
Change requirement of Stack inserters from Logistics 2 to 3.
add requirement for Logistics 4 on Stack 2, and Logistics 5 on Stack 3.
(Logistics 5 will need to be available even if Purple belts are turned off, or just get rid of the option to turn it off entirely, it adds a lot of spag)

Ok, so what I am getting from this, is that the filter versions are going to have white bases and colored arms to match the tier? And if I am reading this right, for each tier we will have an inserter, filter inserter, stack inserter, and filter stack inserter. And each set of four are unlocked at each Logistics Science and designated Stack Science.... love it!

[mrvn]

Stack burner inserter?

[bobingabout]

The planned changes to Logistics is slowly getting done. The belts are done, HD graphics and recipe revamp are in my local copy.

Excellent news! Does this include your tier 0 black belts? If so, will I have to change the assembling machines making these for science packs?

Yes. Black (Actually grey) tier 0 belts only, no splitter or underground version.
And the only recipe change is to science packs. Tier 1 yellow will still remain unlocked by default, black will just offer a cheaper alternative.

Last night was mostly spend re-implementing a cut down pre-place inserter GUI into Logistics mod. Same button at the top of the screen, but the only option is to turn on over-rides, with a long(or not long) inserter over-ride. This is so you can still place long inserters if you don't have bob inserters installed.
I'm slowly working through my list of changes to make to inserters, how does this sound? (Doesn't include recipe changes, only the changes to the inserters themselves.)

Ok, so what I am getting from this, is that the filter versions are going to have white bases and colored arms to match the tier? And if I am reading this right, for each tier we will have an inserter, filter inserter, stack inserter, and filter stack inserter. And each set of four are unlocked at each Logistics Science and designated Stack Science.... love it!

Stack burner inserter?

Burner, Yellow and Red will remain just the one inserter as they are now.
Starting with Express (blue) tier, you'll also have a filter inserter for every tier, and Stack and stack filter inserters on the offshoot stack inserters research.

And yes, Filter inserters will have a white base, but be of the colour of their tier. For example, Express inserter will be all blue, As will the Express Stack inserter, which uses different hand graphics. Filter and Stack filter inserters will have a white base, and possible white stripes on their blue arms.

[bobingabout]

Current progress with the inserters.

All entities have been recoloured
All icons have been recoloured
The entire technology unlock restructure is complete.

A couple of issues have cropped up. Filter inserter would require fast(express) inserter to build, which is now on logistics 3, locked behind blue science.
So I changed the filter inserter to be red (fast), adjusted the stats to match, and put it on Logistics 2, which still requires green science to build, but it requires electronics tech. it's a more natural progression.
I then added a new express filter inserter to go alongside fast inserter.

in tech mod, if express(ultimate) inserter exists, the logistic science pack requires it to build. the problem is that you require the logistics pack to research turbo, then ultimate.
I need to update the Tech mod to check for blue-filter-inserter(Express filter inserter) instead.

I haven't done any of the inserter recipes yet.

[foodfactorio]

hi bob, is there a way to make a new module (but based on Slowing down the crafting speed?)

for example, youve got pollution reducing modules
and also pollution generating modules (which are good if you want to encourage biter growth / evolution for your warfare mods)

but sometimes, we have certain entities that are connected to multiple entities, and all are sharing pipes of fluids or gasses, or resources on a belt, and i think it actually could be useful to be able to slow down particular entities (to save a bit of power usage, and also what resources they use, or steal from other entities)