Flying Robot Frame should require plastic instead of steel

[Slayn25]

Flying Robot Frame
Current recipe:
2 batteries
1 electric engine unit
3 electronic circuit
1 steel plate

Suggested recipe:
2 batteries
1 electric engine unit
3 electronic circuit
5? plastic bars

Reasons plastic is a better fit than steel
1. Bots need to be light to fly
2. Bots are weak
3. Shifts demand from Iron to oil/coal

[eradicator]

-1

Plastic is already used in huge quantities for red/blue chips. And cargo arms made from plastic would break under the weight of carrying an assembler, or even an oil refinery :P

[Slayn25]

-1

Plastic is already used in huge quantities for red/blue chips. And cargo arms made from plastic would break under the weight of carrying an assembler, or even an oil refinery

Iron is used in equal quantities for red chips and greater quantities for blue chips, but you got me with the other point (-;

[bobingabout]

Depends what type of plastic it is.

I don't think it's a bad change, I just wouldn't go as high as 5 bars. maybe 2 or 3.

[Jap2.0]

Flying robot frames currently require:

• 2 batteries
  1 electric engine
  3 green circuits
  1 steel

The materials required to make that are:

• 9.5 copper
  21.8 iron (10 -> 2 steel)
  140 water
  150 crude oil (basic oil processing, 150 -> 60 petrolium gas, 50 -> 15 heavy oil, excess 30 heavy oil and 45 light oil)

With the proposed change (let's say 3 plastic):

• 9.5 copper
  16.8 iron (5 -> 1 steel)
  140 water
  225 crude oil (basic oil processing, 225 -> 90 petrolium gas, 50 -> 15 heavy oil, excess 30 heavy oil and 45 light oil)
  1.5 coal

You're increasing the oil required by 50%, adding a little coal, and decreasing the iron by ~20%. I'm not sure which would be better by way of balancing.

[Slayn25]

Flying robot frames currently require:

• 2 batteries
  1 electric engine
  3 green circuits
  1 steel

The materials required to make that are:

• 9.5 copper
  21.8 iron (10 -> 2 steel)
  140 water
  150 crude oil (basic oil processing, 150 -> 60 petrolium gas, 50 -> 15 heavy oil, excess 30 heavy oil and 45 light oil)

With the proposed change (let's say 3 plastic):

• 9.5 copper
  16.8 iron (5 -> 1 steel)
  140 water
  225 crude oil (basic oil processing, 225 -> 90 petrolium gas, 50 -> 15 heavy oil, excess 30 heavy oil and 45 light oil)
  1.5 coal

You're increasing the oil required by 50%, adding a little coal, and decreasing the iron by ~20%. I'm not sure which would be better by way of balancing.

Flying Robot Frames are late game so I'd say Advanced Oil Processing or Coal liquefaction would be a more realistic comparison.

Advanced Oil Processing w/ Cracking
5 iron ore > 3 plastic bars = 1.5 Coal + ~33 oil

Coal Liquefaction w/ Cracking
5 iron ore > 3 plastic bars = ~10 Coal

Bots are a late game item so from a gameplay perspective imo it fits better that you'd have to ramp up your plastic production instead of steel since plastic is a later resource than steel.
Plus in the late game power gets switched from coal to solar/nuclear which makes coal only good for plastic and liquefaction.

[Jap2.0]

Flying robot frames currently require:

• 2 batteries
  1 electric engine
  3 green circuits
  1 steel

The materials required to make that are:

• 9.5 copper
  21.8 iron (10 -> 2 steel)
  140 water
  150 crude oil (basic oil processing, 150 -> 60 petrolium gas, 50 -> 15 heavy oil, excess 30 heavy oil and 45 light oil)

With the proposed change (let's say 3 plastic):

• 9.5 copper
  16.8 iron (5 -> 1 steel)
  140 water
  225 crude oil (basic oil processing, 225 -> 90 petrolium gas, 50 -> 15 heavy oil, excess 30 heavy oil and 45 light oil)
  1.5 coal

You're increasing the oil required by 50%, adding a little coal, and decreasing the iron by ~20%. I'm not sure which would be better by way of balancing.

Flying Robot Frames are late game so I'd say Advanced Oil Processing or Coal liquefaction would be a more realistic comparison.

Advanced Oil Processing w/ Cracking
5 iron ore > 3 plastic bars = 1.5 Coal + ~33 oil

Coal Liquefaction w/ Cracking
5 iron ore > 3 plastic bars = ~10 Coal

Bots are a late game item so from a gameplay perspective imo it fits better that you'd have to ramp up your plastic production instead of steel since plastic is a later resource than steel.
Plus in the late game power gets switched from coal to solar/nuclear which makes coal only good for plastic and liquefaction.

Yes, adv. oil/coal liquification would have probably been better. That was just me being lazy. Even though they are on the exact same page on the wiki. Also, there was some wrong information on the original. I also semi-automated this, in the spirit of Factorio. Here's a better comparison:

• Basic Oil Processing
  
  140 water
  225 crude oil (petrolium gas bottleneck)
  
  Basic Oil Processing (with cracking)
  
  215 water
  130 crude oil (petrolium gas bottleneck)
  
  Advanced Oil Processing
  
  140 water
  163 63/99 crude oil (petrolium gas bottleneck)
  
  Advanced Oil Processing (with cracking)
  
  282.5 water (with all excess cracked - minimal cracking would require less water)
  150 crude oil (heavy oil bottleneck)

I'm out of time to continue at the moment, and coal liquification will be annoying to calculate, but if you want that as well let me know.

[bobingabout]

Honestly, it doesn't bother me a whole lot. both options are red/green science level to build the frame.

And robots aren't exactly late game items, sure it might be late game before you get to the point where you can make a logistics network in your base, but you're supposed to be able to use robots for construction, or bring items to the player long before then.

Either way, there isn't really a difficulty change, because you still need batteries and advanced circuits to make the roboport (I think, it's been too long, definitely one of the robots, I don't really play without my mods so I've forgotten what base game looks like), it just uses more oil and less steel, but oil is infinite, so what does it matter?
The addition of coal might be a slight issue, but you're trading iron for LESS coal.

It works.

And then my MK2 robot replaces it with aluminium, so either way you're looking at it, you're either replacing steel because it's too heavy, or replacing the plastic because it's not strong enough. so it still works there too.

[bobucles]

I'm not really sure why the robot frame requires circuits. The frame is just an empty husk that doesn't do anything. The bots don't get any brains until the next recipe, where it is programmed into either a construction bot (2 greens) or a logistic bot (2 reds).

I do think the robot frame should require an inserter arm. After all inserters are the de facto "grabs things" of Factorio and it makes sense that a robot frame is basically a flying inserter.

So modifying the recipe I would recommend
before

Code: Select all

2 battery
1 electric engine
3 circuit
1 steel

after

Code: Select all

2 battery
1 electric engine
1 fast inserter

The total recipe cost is actually nearly the same. The before cost is 3 circuits + 1 steel(5 iron), while a fast inserter costs 3 circuit, 1 gear and 3 plate (5 iron). In expensive mode this represents a slight cost reduction as 1 steel costs 10 iron, while 1 gear +3 plate is 7 iron.
I don't mind if the overall bot recipe is made cheaper (It might fit well with a bot nerf hint hint) so the fast inserter could also be a normal inserter. This would reduce the recipe cost by 2 circuits and 2 plate for either game mode.

[bobingabout]

I'm not really sure why the robot frame requires circuits. The frame is just an empty husk that doesn't do anything. The bots don't get any brains until the next recipe, where it is programmed into either a construction bot (2 greens) or a logistic bot (2 reds).

I do think the robot frame should require an inserter arm. After all inserters are the de facto "grabs things" of Factorio and it makes sense that a robot frame is basically a flying inserter.

So modifying the recipe I would recommend
before

Code: Select all

2 battery
1 electric engine
3 circuit
1 steel

after

Code: Select all

2 battery
1 electric engine
1 fast inserter

The total recipe cost is actually nearly the same. The before cost is 3 circuits + 1 steel(5 iron), while a fast inserter costs 3 circuit, 1 gear and 3 plate (5 iron). In expensive mode this represents a slight cost reduction as 1 steel costs 10 iron, while 1 gear +3 plate is 7 iron.
I don't mind if the overall bot recipe is made cheaper (It might fit well with a bot nerf hint hint) so the fast inserter could also be a normal inserter. This would reduce the recipe cost by 2 circuits and 2 plate for either game mode.

I'd probably end up reverting that in my mod, because you build a "Tool", which is effectively an inserter arm as part of building the robot phase.
Plus combat robots cost a frame too.

[lottery248]

i think that the recipe for bots should be balanced too, but must be equal. plastic alone is very questionable here, we don't even know which kind of plastic factorio itself is defined (hard or soft? flexibility?). why not replacing 3 green circuit by a red one compared to the current?

[dood]

That would almost be as annoying as the iron ore required in concrete.

[benaiu]

I'm not really sure why the robot frame requires circuits. The frame is just an empty husk that doesn't do anything. The bots don't get any brains until the next recipe, where it is programmed into either a construction bot (2 greens) or a logistic bot (2 reds).

I do think the robot frame should require an inserter arm. After all inserters are the de facto "grabs things" of Factorio and it makes sense that a robot frame is basically a flying inserter.

So modifying the recipe I would recommend
before

Code: Select all

2 battery
1 electric engine
3 circuit
1 steel

after

Code: Select all

2 battery
1 electric engine
1 fast inserter

The total recipe cost is actually nearly the same. The before cost is 3 circuits + 1 steel(5 iron), while a fast inserter costs 3 circuit, 1 gear and 3 plate (5 iron). In expensive mode this represents a slight cost reduction as 1 steel costs 10 iron, while 1 gear +3 plate is 7 iron.
I don't mind if the overall bot recipe is made cheaper (It might fit well with a bot nerf hint hint) so the fast inserter could also be a normal inserter. This would reduce the recipe cost by 2 circuits and 2 plate for either game mode.

I like this idea.

[thereaverofdarkness]

Steel actually has an excellent strength-to-weight ratio, better than plastic. A bot with thin steel appendages = very light yet still sturdy. Aluminum steel is boss for strength to weight ratio. Airplanes are largely made from aluminum steels.