Simple Questions and Short Answers

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LazyLoneLion
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by LazyLoneLion » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:33 pm

Jap2.0 wrote:
LazyLoneLion wrote:
steinio wrote:If the train is too long to fit in the circle and makes an 270degree turn it bites itself in the ass.
But why would you need a 270 degree turn instead of 90 degree in the opposite direction?
That's the silly thing about roundabouts.
Still don't understand. Why would you skip the turn before use it?
90vs270.png
90 degrees versus 270 degrees
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Zavian » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:48 pm

The silly thing is that trains sometimes used to choose a 270 degree turn rather than a 90 degree turn in roundabouts. I had hoped that aaargha's fixed mentioned in viewtopic.php?f=11&t=51341#p337099 would prevent it for most cases . I'm not sure what version of the game mp0011 was running when he saw this, or whether he was disabling stations (which can cause a train to repath after the 90 degree exit). If this was after aaargha's fix in 0.16.17, then it would be the first report of this I've seen after aaargha's change.

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by mp0011 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:02 pm

It was 16.22 and I was disabling stations. A lot. My whole trains logistic system depends on it.

I just build biger roundabouts, so it's fine now...

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by steinio » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:07 pm

The more i think about it... isn't it more a 450° turn instead of 270° as the train takes a full 360° circle plus the 90°to the exit?
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mp0011
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by mp0011 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:16 pm

steinio wrote:The more i think about it... isn't it more a 450° turn instead of 270° as the train takes a full 360° circle plus the 90°to the exit?
It's 270 to the left. 90 to the right is equal to -90 to the left...

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Deadly-Bagel
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:12 pm

Depends on the perspective. Directionally, it's actually 90°, but the train itself is turning a total of 450° --- there shouldn't be any real reason to say 270° except maybe say directionally how far around the roundabout to go which is pretty obscure.
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Jap2.0 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:00 pm

Yeah, you mean 450°. My assumption was that you meant 270°. As for 450° turns, I have no idea how that happens - I think it was repathing in a roundabout, but it sounds like that may have been fixed.
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by LazyLoneLion » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:24 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Depends on the perspective. Directionally, it's actually 90°, but the train itself is turning a total of 450° --- there shouldn't be any real reason to say 270° except maybe say directionally how far around the roundabout to go which is pretty obscure.
It's 360 at most. If you count from the starting -45 degrees turn to the right.
270vs450.png
270 degrees or 450 degrees
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by PacifyerGrey » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:29 am

Roundabouts can cause trains to do such stuff if a train is forced to repath while in the middle of it.
The fix was mentioned here actually decreased the frequency at which trains started a repath (older fix) and prevented a train from blocking itself signal-wise (newer one).
So it is up to a player to ensure trains are shorter than roundabout and he is not forcing a train repath by switching stations on/off too often.

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by LazyLoneLion » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:34 am

PacifyerGrey wrote:Roundabouts can cause trains to do such stuff if a train is forced to repath while in the middle of it.
The fix was mentioned here actually decreased the frequency at which trains started a repath (older fix) and prevented a train from blocking itself signal-wise (newer one).
So it is up to a player to ensure trains are shorter than roundabout and he is not forcing a train repath by switching stations on/off too often.
I use two other solutions:
1) don't use roundabouts. T-junctions are better and look better. Don't use rail-crossings -- use two T-junctions instead if you need it.

2) if in doubt, use regular rail signals only on the exits from a junction. Other signals on a junction, especially on the entrance are chain signals. So no train will ever stop in the middle of the junction. It might decrease the traffic speed, but it saves any complex junction from deadlocks. Outside of the junctions, on the straight railways I use regular rail signals, of course.

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:41 pm

PacifyerGrey wrote:So it is up to a player to ensure trains are shorter than roundabout and he is not forcing a train repath by switching stations on/off too often.
There is no "perfect" solution to trains that is impossible to break, you just need to set your rules and adhere to them. Usually they are as simple as maximum train length but can also be signal spacing (especially after intersections) and distance between loops and intersections.
LazyLoneLion wrote:It's 360 at most. If you count from the starting -45 degrees turn to the right.
What is the point of that metric? From a map perspective, as if giving directions, it's a 90°turn. From an engineering perspective to measure the turning forces on the train, it's 450° total. From a roundabout diagnostic perspective, it took a 270°turn instead of a 90° turn. There's no sensible reason to say it went 360°.
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by mp0011 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:10 pm

I did some research, and here's a setup for "train killer" using this BUG.

1) Signals at Roundabout disable nearest station "A", train search for another one.
2) Train kill some of it's wagons on Roundabout.
3) Switches itself to MANUAL mode.
4) DRIVES FORWARD AT FULL SPEED WITH NO CONTROL.
5) Train destroys entire "VERY EXPENSIVE STUFF TRAIN".

6) ...pure FUN ;)

Fun fact:
Such train can destroy 48 wagons full of stuff, until it stops.
Attachments
ROUNDABOUT TRAIN KILLER .zip
Start LONG train to kill SHORT one.
(3.27 MiB) Downloaded 24 times

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by BlackHat » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:07 pm

Pump Jacks... It used to be (pre 0.15) that well showed there quantity "x" oil/second and you stuck in Productivity Modules until they got to 0.8/sec, then you switched to Speed Modules. (Wells eventually depleted to 0.1/sec)

Then in 0.15 Factorio upgraded the Oil system. They show a % now. (ex. 242% and when you stick a Jack on it it shows 24.2/s) The new wells will deplete to 20% of their starting value. And the FAQs say now when it reaches that low 20% original capacity that's when you switch to Speed modules. (In the example I would guess that would be 48% with the Jack removed, or 4.8/s with the jack in-place.)

But they all have varying starting percentages, and thus varying 20% minimum depletion values.

So...... How am I supposed to tell when a well has reached the Minimum?
I do NOT want to make a record of each well and its starting value, that I can compare it to to see when it has reached minimum.
I do NOT want to keep going to each pump and see if its output has stopped going down (again wold need to make a record)
I cant see any indicator that shows if a well has reached it depleted value. (If the Jacks displayed #cycles completed we could use that, as 24000 cycles is what it takes to deplete a well from 100% to 20%.)

Am I missing something? How do we tell if a well has depleted to the 20% minimum?

Thanks,

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:35 pm

Open it from the map and hover over it. If the combined number of wells multiplied by 20 equalls the number the map gives, they're at minimum value.

Eg I have a group of 5 oil wells, the map tells me they are a combined yield of 101%, that means on average the yield of each well is at 20.2% and it would be time to install Speed Modules.
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by hreintke » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 am

Hi,

When I started the game I "created the world" using this command.

Code: Select all

/c game.forces.player.chart(game.player.surface,{lefttop = {x = -2048, y = -2048}, rightbottom = {x = 2048, y = 2048}})
That created worls according to my settings.

When coming to the limits I wanted to extend it and entered :

Code: Select all

/c game.forces.player.chart(game.player.surface,{lefttop = {x = -4096, y = -4096}, rightbottom = {x = 4096, y = 4096}})
But that surrounded the exististing world with an outline of different settings and the borderlines do not match :
extendworld.JPG
extendworld.JPG (25.9 KiB) Viewed 2904 times
Is there a way/command to actually extend the world with the "old settings" without the player walking around ?

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by DaveMcW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:28 am

Walking won't work either, you old settings are gone forever. Whatever you did to break the settings, don't do it again.

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by hreintke » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:59 am

You are right with the walking around. That creates the exact same results.

Checked old saves to see when I lost settings :

- last fact 15.33 save, extending works correct.
- The same save opened in fact 16.20 lost the settings -> extending fails.

As I wanted to be able to revert to 15.33 in case of issues I created a new factorio environment and copied mod & save directory.
Probably causing the issue.

Loosing a months playing or having a broken world, not a nice choice.

Is there a way to get the settings back ?
How would you move from 15 -> 16 without loosing the settings ?

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Zavian » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:02 pm

Map generation changed between 0.15 and 0.16 (and will likely change again in 0.17). What you are seeing is that part of your map was generated with 0.15, and the newer bit was generated with 0.16. The only "fix" is to load the 0.15 savegame with 0.15, and explore all the territory you want to expand into before moving to 0.16.

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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:17 pm

This occurs even if you don't use commands, it's all part of the fun when updating a save to another major version.
hreintke wrote:How would you move from 15 -> 16 without loosing the settings ?
Is that anything like loosing a strap? Or is it more like a volley of arrows? =P
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Re: Simple Questions and Short Answers

Post by hreintke » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:23 pm

OK, Thanks.

Although it's is a bad feature, seems I have to live with it.
I know it is still a 0.xx version but expected some backward compatibilty.

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