0.16.7: Boilers working intermittently, even if steam is low

[Reika]

The highlighted (vanilla) boiler, despite outputting to a powered pump and a nearly empty tank (which is being drawn from by the upper-left turbine), is only sporadically activating and generating some steam, and soon shuts down again. The boiler has fuel, water, and demand. No mods are modifying vanilla boiler behavior (only pollution values).

[Loewchen]

It is even obvious from the screenshot that this is not a vanilla boiler.

[Reika]

It is even obvious from the screenshot that this is not a vanilla boiler.

If you mean the " > NauvisDay", that is because the pollution production was modified, as I said in the original post. Unless that is linked to its activity - which I very much doubt - then yes, it is a purely vanilla boiler in all relevant aspects.

[TruePikachu]

You're burning nuclear fuel cells, which is something that isn't designed to be burnt like this. Keep in mind that the fuel also determines the characteristics for generating power.

[Bilka]

You're burning nuclear fuel cells, which is something that isn't designed to be burnt like this. Keep in mind that the fuel also determines the characteristics for generating power.

nuclear fuel however is standard fuel and can be burned like this. because that's what reika is actually burning, not nuclear fuel cells

[Loewchen]

... it is a purely vanilla boiler in all relevant aspects.

The fact, that it does no longer have a STEAM OUTPUT CHAMBER makes me doubt that, but if correct, it should be no problem to provide a save file without mods and identical behaviour.

[Reika]

You're burning nuclear fuel cells, which is something that isn't designed to be burnt like this. Keep in mind that the fuel also determines the characteristics for generating power.

....That is rocket fuel. I also tested solid fuel and coal.

... it is a purely vanilla boiler in all relevant aspects.

The fact, that it does no longer have a STEAM OUTPUT CHAMBER makes me doubt that, but if correct, it should be no problem to provide a save file without mods and identical behaviour.

You are looking at the wrong boiler. Hence why I said the "highlighted" one. Not to mention one of the images does not even have that boiler. Seriously, if you are going to yell at me, it would do better to be correct in your statements first.

[Bilka]

You're burning nuclear fuel cells, which is something that isn't designed to be burnt like this. Keep in mind that the fuel also determines the characteristics for generating power.

....That is rocket fuel. I also tested solid fuel and coal.

That's nuclear fuel.

[Loewchen]

You are looking at the wrong boiler. Hence why I said the "highlighted" one. Not to mention one of the images does not even have that boiler.

Since the menu to see the steam fluid box only exist in the highlighted I don't see how I could look at the wrong one.
To make it simple, where is the steam fluid box in this picture:

[Reika]

You're burning nuclear fuel cells, which is something that isn't designed to be burnt like this. Keep in mind that the fuel also determines the characteristics for generating power.

....That is rocket fuel. I also tested solid fuel and coal.

That's nuclear fuel.

No, nuclear fuel looks like this.


EDIT:
Oh, I see what you mean. The rocket fuel changed sprites, and the old sprite is now used for something different.

Still, I - as both stated and shown in other images - tried other fuels with no effect. And the boiler did accept and begin to burn the nuclear fuel, not refuse with a "this needs chemical fuel, but that is nuclear fuel" message like if you put fuel cells in a train.

You are looking at the wrong boiler. Hence why I said the "highlighted" one. Not to mention one of the images does not even have that boiler.

Since the menu to see the steam fluid box only exist in the highlighted I don't see how I could look at the wrong one.
To make it simple, where is the steam fluid box in this picture:

It is not listed at right because there is no steam. The right-hand panel does not show empty fluid boxes.

[TruePikachu]

I retract my statement about nuclear fuel, I didn't know that an actual burnable form was added in 0.16, and I was looking at a template on the wiki to identify the sprite.

[Reika]

Since people have repeatedly refused to believe me, I removed all mods and the issue persists:
Save file is attached.


This ends the debate on whether the behavior is in vanilla boilers.


Loewchen, why did you move this into "Not a bug", when I have clearly demonstrated that the issue exists even in vanilla, and noone from the Factorio team has stated this to be intended behavior (nor can I imagine why such behavior would be desired, since it makes it literally impossible to use steam power)?

I will just make a new post if this does not get moved back.

[Xeteth]

Since people have repeatedly refused to believe me, I removed all mods and the issue persists:
Save file is attached.

This ends the debate on whether the behavior is in vanilla boilers.


Loewchen, why did you move this into "Not a bug", when I have clearly demonstrated that the issue exists even in vanilla, and noone from the Factorio team has stated this to be intended behavior (nor can I imagine why such behavior would be desired, since it makes it literally impossible to use steam power)?

I will just make a new post if this does not get moved back.

I just loaded your save in 0.16.7 and there is no boiler there at all... I'm thinking this was a mod issue as I've tested it extensively in a pure vanilla game with no issues.

[Zavian]

Firstly. Boilers are working for me in my save. And they must be working for most other people, otherwise there would have been more reports of this.

boiler.png (1.14 MiB) Viewed 6558 times

Boiler4.png (878.08 KiB) Viewed 6558 times

Note the water temp of 165, and the steam output box.

So I load up the test16b.zip you provided. Looks like the last save was with a lot of mods installed. (But ok, you said you removed them and tested again. Definitely possible that you did not save again after removing them).

LoadScreen.png (465.07 KiB) Viewed 6558 times

Load the game. Message about a lot of migrated content.

No regular boiler in sight. So build a boiler, a steam engine and a radar to provide some load.

boiler2.png (1.47 MiB) Viewed 6558 times

boiler3.png (1.58 MiB) Viewed 6558 times

Everything seems to be working for me. Note the water temp of 165, and the steam output box.

So if this was me, and I knew that this bug couldn't affect many people, since there hasn't been any similar bugs reported, I would want to work out what was unique about my install. I'd probably start by downloading and extracting the .zip version to a new location, start a new pure vanilla game, and see if boilers work properly there. (Alternatively I might start by having steam verify the old install). If they do, then I'd look at comparing what different between the 2 installs, and see if I can find anything. Even if this gets moved back to bugs, the devs are unlikely to be able to fix it until someone works out what triggers it/how to reproduce it.

[Reika]

I have created an entirely new save, one that has never existed while mods were installed (ie I removed all mods, restarted, created a new world, made the images below, and then saved it as the attached file). The problem persists:



@Zavian:
Thank you for actually listening to me - and testing accordingly - even if you are currently not able to reproduce the issue. Can you try this map?

Also, @Loewchen: The output fluidbox is there:

[Reika]

New post due to size of embeds (in both posts), even if this technically is too soon after the previous.

In anticipation of being accused of using mods or otherwise doing something wrong again, I made a video of the bug (runtime < 2min), and have attached the relevant save:

Video url (in case of broken embed):
https://youtu.be/wl-JXbf6w6E

Video embed:


You will notice that not even replacing the boiler itself fixes the issue, which leads me to wonder if the issue is related to some cache that is made "behind the scenes".

Also, I cannot do a Steam verification, because I do not have Factorio on Steam. I got it long before that was a thing.

[Bilka]

If you are gonna fill the tank (and the boiler?) using a command, maybe give the water a temperature that is lower than the max temperature for water (100°C). What might be a bug is that the game lets you do that, but it's not a bug that 500 degree water cant be heated to 165 degree steam. You can even see that the temperature is higher than the standard 15°C in your screenshot. The boiler however requires 15°C water to work. As does the heat exchanger btw, it used to not do that, but then that bug was fixed in 0.15.

NaB.

[Reika]

If you are gonna fill the tank (and the boiler?) using a command, maybe give the water a temperature that is lower than the max temperature for water (100°C). What might be a bug is that the game lets you do that, but it's not a bug that 500 degree water cant be heated to 165 degree steam. You can even see that the temperature is higher than the standard 15°C in your screenshot. The boiler however requires 15°C water to work. As does the heat exchanger btw, it used to not do that, but then that bug was fixed in 0.15.

NaB.

FINALLY.

Yes, that was it. Thank you!

Still, why did it work for a second, and then shut down? I - or we - might have realized this sooner if it had failed to work entirely, as your description implies it should. That is, had the boiler never activated, it would strongly imply that it was not given valid working conditions, but working briefly implies that it started valid then stopped being so.

So, there is still a bug, but a far more minor one.

[Bilka]

Still, why did it work for a second, and then shut down? I - or we - might have realized this sooner if it had failed to work entirely, as your description implies it should. That is, had the boiler never activated, it would strongly imply that it was not given valid working conditions, but working briefly implies that it started valid then stopped being so.

That only happens if the boiler is already filled with coal and connected to the tank the moment you fill the tank with water. I guess the boiler works for a tick the moment it gets water and only then checks for the temperature.

[Reika]

Still, why did it work for a second, and then shut down? I - or we - might have realized this sooner if it had failed to work entirely, as your description implies it should. That is, had the boiler never activated, it would strongly imply that it was not given valid working conditions, but working briefly implies that it started valid then stopped being so.

That only happens if the boiler is already filled with coal and connected to the tank the moment you fill the tank with water. I guess the boiler works for a tick the moment it gets water and only then checks for the temperature.

This is weird and ideally should be changed, but it is indeed minor enough that if doing so incurs any meaningful cost, it is not worth the effort.