Thoughts on Factorio and how I would make it better...

[Oktokolo]

In short ?

I propose having different species, that simulate a very simple eco system and "have a life" to make the planet's fauna more interesting (not neccessarily harder).

there is a mod that does exactly this - improving the biter AI its great its awesome it does exactly what i was missing from the base game biter ai.

Is https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Afforess/Misanthrope the mod you are talking about? Maybe i should try it after my current bob's game.

[Jap2.0]

In short ?

I propose having different species, that simulate a very simple eco system and "have a life" to make the planet's fauna more interesting (not neccessarily harder).

there is a mod that does exactly this - improving the biter AI its great its awesome it does exactly what i was missing from the base game biter ai.

Is https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Afforess/Misanthrope the mod you are talking about? Maybe i should try it after my current bob's game.

I believe there are several, also see Rampant, Natural Evolution Enemies, and Bob's Enemies.

[Oktokolo]

I believe there are several, also see Rampant, Natural Evolution Enemies, and Bob's Enemies.

Rampart maight be worth a try.

Natural Evolution seems to be mostly about more hit points and harder attacks. Desertification and buildings catching fire on destruction might be nice to have though.

Bob's Enemies i already use in my current full-Bob's game. I like the more diverse biter weapons but did not detect any AI changes yet. Generally, Bob's seems to make biter killing more easy because of the enhanced weaponry (MK1 sniper turrets really kick ass against spawners and worms and MK2 standard turrets are great against defenders). Did not even try enhanced ammunition or higher tier turrets yet and lost my fear of big worms already...

[Hellatze]

Just adding space exploration and mining are suffice.

Or adding z axis.

[Jap2.0]

Or adding z axis.

For that to happen... they'll have to rewrite practically the entire game, and all your factorios would run at about 1 UPS. And there aren't any plans for that in the near future. If you're only talking about train tunnels and bridges, people have been talking about it for years, so I'd be surprised if it actually happened. It would be nice though.

[Oktokolo]

Just adding space exploration and mining are suffice.
Or adding z axis.

While browsing the mod catalogue i saw something that claims to add space exploration and something that implements populated caves. So it seems to be possible to have multiple game world planes with or without mapping between the coordinate systems. But i don't think, a real z axis would really benefit the game that much. There even is a helicopter mod that is pretty awesome and it obviously does not need a real z axis to work.
Sometimes, i think about an underground layer where i could hide all the belts and pipework. But building factories in full 3D would become confusing quickly.

[quineotio]

I don't think there needs to be another game world, so to speak. If there was a space platform you could send your rocket to, you could trade for recipes, higher level science packs and advanced resources without having more than a menu. This would allow you to continue building and advancing the base you're building without 3d, or another map. It would also give your factory more purpose, because as it stands, the fun part is building the factory, not so much in running it after it's built.

I also think biters could be made more interesting by having biter strongholds - main sources of biter production. These bases could be a lot stronger than a normal base, and spawn smaller biter bases around them, but normal biter bases wouldn't spawn on their own. This would make it more rewarding to kill biters, because taking out the main base would stop biter growth in a wide area. At the moment the map just gets covered in biters and it's irritating and time consuming to get rid of them (and pretty easy too).

[Hellatze]

Or adding z axis.

For that to happen... they'll have to rewrite practically the entire game, and all your factorios would run at about 1 UPS. And there aren't any plans for that in the near future. If you're only talking about train tunnels and bridges, people have been talking about it for years, so I'd be surprised if it actually happened. It would be nice though.

Its not that hard if somebody already create mod for it.

I think it just lazyness.

[Hellatze]

I don't think there needs to be another game world, so to speak. If there was a space platform you could send your rocket to, you could trade for recipes, higher level science packs and advanced resources without having more than a menu. This would allow you to continue building and advancing the base you're building without 3d, or another map. It would also give your factory more purpose, because as it stands, the fun part is building the factory, not so much in running it after it's built.

I also think biters could be made more interesting by having biter strongholds - main sources of biter production. These bases could be a lot stronger than a normal base, and spawn smaller biter bases around them, but normal biter bases wouldn't spawn on their own. This would make it more rewarding to kill biters, because taking out the main base would stop biter growth in a wide area. At the moment the map just gets covered in biters and it's irritating and time consuming to get rid of them (and pretty easy too).

Thats making biter more annoying.

I really hope biter gives reward of something else. Like money kr xp.

Or organic component for lab research ?

[quineotio]

I don't think there needs to be another game world, so to speak. If there was a space platform you could send your rocket to, you could trade for recipes, higher level science packs and advanced resources without having more than a menu. This would allow you to continue building and advancing the base you're building without 3d, or another map. It would also give your factory more purpose, because as it stands, the fun part is building the factory, not so much in running it after it's built.

I also think biters could be made more interesting by having biter strongholds - main sources of biter production. These bases could be a lot stronger than a normal base, and spawn smaller biter bases around them, but normal biter bases wouldn't spawn on their own. This would make it more rewarding to kill biters, because taking out the main base would stop biter growth in a wide area. At the moment the map just gets covered in biters and it's irritating and time consuming to get rid of them (and pretty easy too).

Thats making biter more annoying.

How? It would mean that instead of the map being covered in biters, all of equal importance, you'd have strongholds of biters, spaced more widely. Instead of wandering around with space bar held down clearing out bases with little payoff, you could go on a deeper mission to stop the biters in a particular area permanently, giving a bigger payoff. You could couple this with getting some rare resource from the biter strongholds.

I really am curious why you think it'd make it worse.

[Jap2.0]

Or adding z axis.

For that to happen... they'll have to rewrite practically the entire game, and all your factorios would run at about 1 UPS. And there aren't any plans for that in the near future. If you're only talking about train tunnels and bridges, people have been talking about it for years, so I'd be surprised if it actually happened. It would be nice though.

Its not that hard if somebody already create mod for it.

I think it just lazyness.

What mod?

[drachma]

In a game about automation I really didn't like the aspect of having to go out to collect resources from biters, since it's a process that can't be automated. I am glad that got removed. As it stands now you need to clear them to access more territory for mining, which is rewarding in itself. Fortunately, that task is only needed infrequently especially once you get to big ore patches.

I agree they need some work as they are incredibly annoying (read: time-consuming and trivial to deal with) in the late game. But I like their presence in early-mid game since they add some resource and time pressure to deal with. They make it a "game" instead of just a simulation.

If they WERE made to drop necessary resources again, some way of automating the collection is needed to maintain core factorio gameplay, in my opinion. Some kind of alien farming or domestication mechanism, perhaps? You build walls around alien nests, give them food or something, and use that to collect science from them?

[Zavian]

If the devs wanted to reintroduce drops form biters, one idea would be to only use their drops as an ingredient in player weapons/ammunition. (Not ammunition for turrets, but ammo the player character can use). That way you don't need to go kill them for anything, but if you do kill them, they drop something that you can turn into ammo/grenades/poison capsule variants etc.

[looney]

If you want a challenge, have you tried one of the crash site variations?

Limited space, limited resources, massive field of spawners. But a few nice rewards scattered around worth fighting for.

[Raveman]

ALIENS. 3 things. First, they arent needed for anything. I liked it back when you had to kill em for the artifacts. Now theyre just annoying PESTS that need to be nuked off the planet. I really didn't like this change. I REALLY think aliens should drop SPECIAL resources when you kill their units and buildings. I was hoping for an expansion in this area but it was just REMOVED...! SECOND. After a point they just MELT. Their late game difficulty is HORRIBLE. Make lasers, flamers and nukers and theyre DONE FOR. Come ON let's get some super HARD MODE late game aliens going. THIRD. Aliens should be more than just worms, rangers and melee guys. They could be an AWESOME race... Think ZERG from starcraft.

I totally agree with you here. Bitters need to have a bigger role than they do currently. Why have turrets, guns and tanks when bitters are so easy to deal with. Better AI, different types of bitters, drops on kill would all be improvement.

Endgame in general is quite BLAND. Other than making a MASSIVE MEGABASE and getting the mining productivity research going there ISN'T much to do. It's really a sandbox at that point once you get a STEADY STREAM of rockets launching. I think the game is due for an endgame expansion with a difinitive goal.

Beyond the first rocket launch, there's no goal in Factorio... and frankly it sucks. I don't see the point in building a mega base if there's no use for it. There should really be an expansion that would make use of such base. I didn'T think much about it, but maybe you could jump on a rocket and land on a new planet, at which point you could use transport ship to import resources from the previous base. There would be a new resource type on this new planet, a new level of processing unit, tougher ennemies and so on. Anything to make use of a mega base would be nice.

[rcp27]

Biters are not supposed to be rewarding, they're supposed to be a PITA and add a dose of challenge. If you want moar challenge, add moar biters. If you don't wan extra challenge, disable them in your map settings.

And this is exactly the kind of logic and wrong design philosophy which make so many game suck or at least keep them under their potential.

Games are art, a game is like a picture where every part fits together and forms an entity.

One of key roles art plays is to comment on and reflect wider society. One of the things I love about Factorio in this context is the way it highlights the fundamental challenge of environmentalism. In real life we all know that industry is a real challenge to the natural environment, and all the poor animals and Forrest’s are being destroyed in the name of “progress”, and we have to find ways to preserve it.

In Factorio, this is entirely subverted, where trees are a massive nuisance to be eliminated at all costs, the wildlife is reduced to nothing more than a minor nuisance, and pollution is completely an afterthought. As art, I think the pollution, the treatment of trees and the overwhelming pointlessness of animal life is a brilliant commentary. For the sake of the art, I would suggest the best change they could make to biters is change them from being repulsive insects into something really cute and cuddly looking, and watch people exterminating the nice fluffy bunnies.

[quineotio]

Biters are not supposed to be rewarding, they're supposed to be a PITA and add a dose of challenge. If you want moar challenge, add moar biters. If you don't wan extra challenge, disable them in your map settings.

And this is exactly the kind of logic and wrong design philosophy which make so many game suck or at least keep them under their potential.

Games are art, a game is like a picture where every part fits together and forms an entity.

One of key roles art plays is to comment on and reflect wider society. One of the things I love about Factorio in this context is the way it highlights the fundamental challenge of environmentalism. In real life we all know that industry is a real challenge to the natural environment, and all the poor animals and Forrest’s are being destroyed in the name of “progress”, and we have to find ways to preserve it.

In Factorio, this is entirely subverted, where trees are a massive nuisance to be eliminated at all costs, the wildlife is reduced to nothing more than a minor nuisance, and pollution is completely an afterthought. As art, I think the pollution, the treatment of trees and the overwhelming pointlessness of animal life is a brilliant commentary. For the sake of the art, I would suggest the best change they could make to biters is change them from being repulsive insects into something really cute and cuddly looking, and watch people exterminating the nice fluffy bunnies.

I don't think Factorio "highlights the fundamental challenge of environmentalism". The environmental stuff is a nuisance, and doesn't effectively communicate the conflict between the built and natural environment. There isn't really an ecosystem, the world is infinite, and you can answer every problem with "build more stuff". I'd say the game is 99.9% about automation, 0.1% about environmental issues, based on the amount of time I've spent thinking about those two things. The developers certainly could emphasize the eco stuff more, but if they removed biters, trees and pollution entirely it would barely change the way I play (and probably make it more fun).

Saying "For the sake of art" is kinda like saying "For the fuck of it". A re-skin won't change the boring, repetitious gameplay.

[HurkWurk]

i would like to see the bugs turned back into an alien tech level, with an entire alien research tree.

however, it could be balanced by having it only modify existing tech, not create a whole bunch of new items. for instance, alien research could speed up belts, inserters, it could make fuels more efficiant, or make machines use less power, etc.

in the real world, we have the concept of "climatizing". IE building or modifying something to work better in a specific environment. the alien research tree could teach us that.

oh, and not all the alien research need be from bugs either. there could be one that simply requires something like 10,000 wood. another that requires 10,000 water, etc, IE actual science of the enviornment. maybe even setting up research machines far apart like radar and having to map 1000x1000 up to 5,000x5,000 to finish the research project. to make it easier, (due to map shapes etc) it would be to explore and uncover XXX number of tiles. so the player could do it themselves, possibly even early on.

maybe just a whole set of achievement based researches ? explore 100,000 tiles and everything produces 20% less pollution because you have learned enough about the area to adapt to it?
that kind of thing.

[nandospm]

a) upgrade planner. just mark the items to be upgraded (eg all yellow belts, underground belts and splitters to blue, all inserters to fast inserter)

b) Outpost 2: Divided Destiny (Dynamix 1997) like modular starship construction. the player should research and launch an Skydock and a series of starship components (ship computer made of thousands of processors, ship reactor, navigational system, sensors, fuel tanks). the last module is a manned capsule to get out of the planet

c) A special Satellite should reveal a very large area around the launchpad

d) You should be able to build nuclear ballistic missiles with near unlimited range

e) Ships and ports. water should be an path and not an obstacle. Island based maps should be playable without heavy land reclamation.
e.1) BATTLESHIPS
e.2) water enemies
e.3) water resources, oil platforms, tankers, etc

[Caine]

@Upgrading belts
Build in a way that is less dependent on belt speed. E.g. use trains instead of a bus. If your production can keep up then everything that is on the bus itself is essentially never used. Saturating belts is waste, a belt should be as empty as possible without stalling the factories that it feeds (sometimes that requires saturation, often it does not). Building more modular and using construction bots to reconstruct modules with upgraded belts also helps.

@Aliens
It all depends on which direction they want to take the game. There is potential to become an awesome strategy game, but that will be quite a different direction. Currently it is a game about design and logistics.

@Complexity
I mostly agree. There is a bit of a difficulty bump for beginners at blue science. But overall the balance is pretty good.

@Endgame
This is something all "make your own goals" games suffer from (Factorio is essentially a sandbox). It is not easy to overcome. The best ways to deal with it is to introduce constraints (e.g. ribbon worlds, mini-bases connected by rail, JIT factories, etc...).

@Character progression
Character progression in this game is done mostly through equipment. You could have a new game+ system which carries over specific equipment and/or research, but that will only make the game less challenging.

@Space
I am not entirely sure how huge of a change it would actually be. The factorissimo mod allows you to walk inside a building. Creating a separate mini-world. An asteroid (or cave) could work similar to that. I.e. you get world transitions by rockets. Artwork will be a big one as you need separate biomes, and perhaps additional research for oxygen production etc...

That said, I think mods can really shine here.