Player speed: More unlocks

[Dreepa]

Hi,

I think it would do the game good if the player is not so fast right from the start. If he starts slower, the area feels bigger. During the game play there would then be run speed upgrades, and with time the dimensions of what is easy to reach become bigger.

Currently it is just a two step progression: Normal speed -> Vehicle.
Therefor there is a wasted opportunity for making the game feel small at the start, and bigger incrementally. Running speed is a parameter for how a player feels the size of the world. It is easy to manipulate, and has great effect.

Cheers!

[quineotio]

I don't want to move slower. If anything I want to move faster. The more time I spend walking, the less time I spend designing and building.

Also, when you get the exoskeleton you can upgrade your walking speed, so you do get faster as the game goes on.

If anything I'd like a jet pack or something so I could fly over buildings.

[eradicator]

Every time i start a new world i feel like a snail and want my +300% movement bonus back (modded armor).
The last thing i'd want is to walk even more slowly. In the beginning of the game you need to run around a lot and carry stuff (coal, plates, etc) to your machines. And making the walk inbetween even more agonizing does not make the game more fun. :/

[impetus maximus]

if we walk/run faster right from the start, it would be less rewarding when we equip our exo's.

[Xeorm]

Normal run speed is fine I think. If anything I'd like some more gradual upgrades so I don't go from nothing to 4x exos at once. Though early stone bricking of the factory does count somewhat.

[Dreepa]

I understand that you cannot take something away from a player, that he gotten used to.

But think of it this way: You build your 10th base, you know how to structure it, you just spam the start in brain-auto mode. That is not the experience of a new player.
A new player looks at everything, inspects, is curious, etc. So it feels very rewarding if the world opens up from a rather "limited" space to a bigger.

Also, think of the map layout. You need to run a lot due to map layout too. If that would be taken into account, like if ores would be closer to each other, yet less, you wouldn't need to move far distances. When the time comes to reach more distant fields, you already upgraded.

For experienced players, maybe there could be an option that goes like "Skip pre-warp era" in galaxy 4x games. Some people like to just start pre warp, playing 30 turns to learn the colony, then research warp drive, and finally the game opens up. For Factorio it would be similar. ->A start that is made for new players, that keeps content and map small, and the player limited. Build your first device that allows crafting. E.g. starting next to a crashed star ship, and needing manual labor to get going. Where cutting trees and mining stone by hand is much more important for the first entry phase of the game.

[quineotio]

I understand that you cannot take something away from a player, that he gotten used to.

But think of it this way: You build your 10th base, you know how to structure it, you just spam the start in brain-auto mode. That is not the experience of a new player.
A new player looks at everything, inspects, is curious, etc. So it feels very rewarding if the world opens up from a rather "limited" space to a bigger.

Also, think of the map layout. You need to run a lot due to map layout too. If that would be taken into account, like if ores would be closer to each other, yet less, you wouldn't need to move far distances. When the time comes to reach more distant fields, you already upgraded.

For experienced players, maybe there could be an option that goes like "Skip pre-warp era" in galaxy 4x games. Some people like to just start pre warp, playing 30 turns to learn the colony, then research warp drive, and finally the game opens up. For Factorio it would be similar. ->A start that is made for new players, that keeps content and map small, and the player limited. Build your first device that allows crafting. E.g. starting next to a crashed star ship, and needing manual labor to get going. Where cutting trees and mining stone by hand is much more important for the first entry phase of the game.

I don't see how increasing the time it takes to run around your base would make the game better. It would just take more time to do things. It's the exact opposite of the type of change I'd propose. If I could teleport I'd do that. If they removed the player character entirely and made it a pure rts I'd be fine with it. The fun part of factorio, for me, is building the factory. Running around is not fun, which is why I stack as many exoskeletons into my power armor as I can fit. The less time I spend walking, the more time I spend building.

The world already opens up from a rather limited space to a "bigger". I already am discouraged from going too far from where I begin, because it takes a lot of resources to connect widely spaced factories. So naturally, over the course of the game, I'll be expanding faster and exploring further.

Why don't you make a mod that makes you walk slower?

[Koub]

I feel this topic is an offspring of that one
I simply disagree. No real reason, I just think the balance between start and endgame is okay-ish.
However, if the devs agree with OP, They will make a change, even if it bothers people who have been used to the current speed : they have already stated that if they were convinced a change would make the game better, they would make it (and they have already done so, and now almost nobody remembers how it was before)

[Bauer]

I think that the player speed is very well balanced. With bricks, concrete floor and exoskeletons you can graduadly increase your speed.

The only reason why I use the exoskeleton MK2 mod is the need to compensate for decreasing UPS... (On concret, I can run faster than a rocket fuel fired train now *eg*)

If I think about it, the vanilla version should have some more speed / movement options in late game. The core of my base is about 40x40 chunks. At some point I started the use of the teleport mod because it's tiring if you walk from A to B most of the time (at 15 UPS). It should be really expensive, like 100.000 space science to make sure it really comes only in LAAAATE game.

[SirSmuggler]

Currently it is just a two step progression: Normal speed -> Vehicle.

That would be a gross oversimplification of the current state.
For walking, we have normal speed, speed on stone path, speed on concrete path. Add to that speed with x number of exo-skeletons in power armor.
For vehicles, we have car speed, tank speed, train speed. And all of thous can be futher adjusted by fuel (wood, coal, solid, rocket).

So I'd say we allready have exacly what you ask for. We are very slowly walking around in the begine, then we reseach more and more tech and start traveling by vechicle and/or put more and more exo-skeletons in our armor.

[bobingabout]

I think it's possible to mod in research that boosts player movement speed.

[Dreepa]

Currently it is just a two step progression: Normal speed -> Vehicle.

That would be a gross oversimplification of the current state.
For walking, we have normal speed, speed on stone path, speed on concrete path. Add to that speed with x number of exo-skeletons in power armor.
For vehicles, we have car speed, tank speed, train speed. And all of thous can be futher adjusted by fuel (wood, coal, solid, rocket).

So I'd say we allready have exacly what you ask for. We are very slowly walking around in the begine, then we reseach more and more tech and start traveling by vechicle and/or put more and more exo-skeletons in our armor.

You can't explore with concrete or stone paths. You can't explore with trains. I understand what you are saying, but you limit it on the topic of speed, while my point was speed in a sense of how it makes the game feel small at the start, and big at the end.

I don't see how increasing the time it takes to run around your base would make the game better. It would just take more time to do things. It's the exact opposite of the type of change I'd propose. If I could teleport I'd do that. If they removed the player character entirely and made it a pure rts I'd be fine with it. The fun part of factorio, for me, is building the factory. Running around is not fun, which is why I stack as many exoskeletons into my power armor as I can fit. The less time I spend walking, the more time I spend building.

The world already opens up from a rather limited space to a "bigger". I already am discouraged from going too far from where I begin, because it takes a lot of resources to connect widely spaced factories. So naturally, over the course of the game, I'll be expanding faster and exploring further.

Why don't you make a mod that makes you walk slower?

On the issue of "we are already too slow": Okay, I get it. Then take the current default speed, and keep it, but make the progression more granular and incremental, starting earlier.

Also keep in mind that you are really talking about the "mastery" phase of the game. I am talking about the first contact, the early phase, the new player and the fresh experience.
Factorio is special, because it connects a character to a build-up. It creates accessibility. Everyone understands immediatelly that he is that character and can run around in the world. It is much more intuitiv than a "god mode" view with a big GUI in the corners of the screen and multi-selection via lasso-box and all that stuff (like game like Sim City, Anno, etc.)
Factorio's 3 C's (Character, Control, Camera) are basically Diablo with WASD instead of mouse click. And that is why it is so easy to start off with.

Therefore I think the design really offers a chance to make a true transition from one game feeling to another.
It starts with: "I am this guy in the center of the screen and are bound to my character. I explore the world and build basic stuff. I am vulnerable and careful in my exploration."
It ends with: "I am this factory, I am everwhere, I own this place. This is my realm and I am the master of my realm."
I totally agree that teleporting should be a feature in the endgame.

[Koub]

You can't explore with concrete or stone paths.

Actually this is untrue. I've seen videos (during a speed run iirc) of someone who had stacks and stacks of concrete and who held them just in front of where he was running, drawing a "path of concrete" just in front of his feet.

[impetus maximus]

Actually this is untrue. I've seen videos (during a speed run iirc) of someone who had stacks and stacks of concrete and who held them just in front of where he was running, drawing a "path of concrete" just in front of his feet.

ice man.png (145.1 KiB) Viewed 7386 times

[Dreepa]

You can't explore with concrete or stone paths.

Actually this is untrue. I've seen videos (during a speed run iirc) of someone who had stacks and stacks of concrete and who held them just in front of where he was running, drawing a "path of concrete" just in front of his feet.

Yes, if you are of the mindset of a logic philosopher, then TECHNICALLY you are right.
Now let's get back to reality

[eradicator]

Therefore I think the design really offers a chance to make a true transition from one game feeling to another.
It starts with: "I am this guy in the center of the screen and are bound to my character. I explore the world and build basic stuff. I am vulnerable and careful in my exploration."

I don't even disagree about a more granual progression "feeling", i just disagree about character.speed being a good method to achieve this. Survival games often do this by having a certain type of nessecary consumable resources only available at the start location.
E.g:
If the character required oxygen to breath but oxygen is only produced by a generator in the crashed (unmovable) spaceship. Then the player could only explorer a certain distance from the start point before being forced to return (or else suffocate), and only later can they produce portable oxygen units that allow more free exploration.

The problem with this approach is that a) there is currently no fixed object the player starts at, and more importantly b) Factorio is not a survival game, so adding elements of survival like oxygen that require constant bar-management throughout the game is not a good option either.

So...what is an adequate method of restricting the player to the starting area without breaking their suspension of disbelief? Civilization does it by limiting the maximum zoomout on the world-map to the area you have explored. That way the world (map) appears smaller in the early game. In factorio building a radar would then slowly expand the map view by revealing surrounding terrain. And if someone just started playing his first game of Factorio they're unlikely to do a lot of on-foot-exploration anyway.

[Dreepa]

Therefore I think the design really offers a chance to make a true transition from one game feeling to another.
It starts with: "I am this guy in the center of the screen and are bound to my character. I explore the world and build basic stuff. I am vulnerable and careful in my exploration."

I don't even disagree about a more granual progression "feeling", i just disagree about character.speed being a good method to achieve this. Survival games often do this by having a certain type of nessecary consumable resources only available at the start location.
E.g:
If the character required oxygen to breath but oxygen is only produced by a generator in the crashed (unmovable) spaceship. Then the player could only explorer a certain distance from the start point before being forced to return (or else suffocate), and only later can they produce portable oxygen units that allow more free exploration.

The problem with this approach is that a) there is currently no fixed object the player starts at, and more importantly b) Factorio is not a survival game, so adding elements of survival like oxygen that require constant bar-management throughout the game is not a good option either.

So...what is an adequate method of restricting the player to the starting area without breaking their suspension of disbelief? Civilization does it by limiting the maximum zoomout on the world-map to the area you have explored. That way the world (map) appears smaller in the early game. In factorio building a radar would then slowly expand the map view by revealing surrounding terrain. And if someone just started playing his first game of Factorio they're unlikely to do a lot of on-foot-exploration anyway.

Agree. Speed was just one method that is a "soft factor". You are more thinking in the direction of a hard cap. That would work too.

[eradicator]

Agree. Speed was just one method that is a "soft factor". You are more thinking in the direction of a hard cap. That would work too.

Locking the maximum zoom is not infact a hard limit. The player can explore as usual. But the average new player (which you were mostly concerned with) will not attempt to do so if the map looks like it's very small.

[Dreepa]

Agree. Speed was just one method that is a "soft factor". You are more thinking in the direction of a hard cap. That would work too.

Locking the maximum zoom is not infact a hard limit. The player can explore as usual. But the average new player (which you were mostly concerned with) will not attempt to do so if the map looks like it's very small.

Well, you were also stating other examples, like Oxygen, which I consider a hard limit.
Anyway, formalities....

The more I think about it, the more it seems to be a problem of how the map generation works. It does not scale it's gameplay properties outwards. We only have 2 settings: Starting area, and the rest.
Skyrim did it well, on a conceptual level: The higher you go, the more dangerous it gets, iirc.

[Koub]

Skyrim did it well, on a conceptual level: The higher you go, the more dangerous it gets, iirc.

I fear not : Thought I love Skyrim, the difficulty raise is just mechanical, mostly scaled on your level (which I hate as a mechanism).
Balancing how difficult a game is while you advance in your playthrough does not make consensus.

Do we want things to be harder as we advance ? Why should the challenge always increase up to the point you start dropping people who can't master the game enough ?

Do we want the game to become increasingly easy, as the player gains access to better tech and stuff, allowing him to wipe the content ? Another way to lose people, because who wants to trivialize the content once far enough in the playthrough.

Do we want a constant challenge, artificially adjusting the threat level to what the player seems able to survive ? What the point into progressing then (those who have experienced vanilla Oblivion know what I'm talking about) ?

It makes sense for a 100% pure puzzle game to become increasingly difficult on the puzzle aspect. Factorio does have some "puzzleness" in it, but is not what I call a puzzle game (as Hexcells series, for example, can be, for those who know it).