Rename certain terms to improve new user experience

[eradicator]

I'm saying find a better solution than this one and I'll be happy enough with that solution

I said that too about your solution.

Also your (hopefully just naive and not malevolent) attempt to discredit my opinion about English because i don't have the birthright of being "native English" is quite frustrating, as is your assumption that my disagreement to what you say is based on my lack of English knowledge. I've played games in English ever since i first got my own computer. I use an English operating sytem and exclusively English software. I write mods in English. At university most literature was English. And i generally communicate more in English than in any other language. So i think i'm quite capable of understanding english. You just stated that you have some sort of reading disorder. Would you have mentioned that if you didn't think that had some effect on your qualification for this discussion as well?

What's your interpretation?

Let me quote myself:

Like i have stated before my concern is exclusively about the wording in relation to the behavior of the bars in the GUI. In factorio the most common scenario is to have a 100% filled "satisfaction" bar next to a partially filled "production" bar. Because you have more capacity than you need. Now if we label those two "demand" and "supply" then suddenly the "demand"-bar is much larger than the supply bar. Which would indicate that you need to build even more capacity if you were going by comparison to those images you posted.

None of your screenshots show any kind of brownout. Your accumulator example approximates one but you just skip over it like it's not important enough. And the rest of your post is basically just re-iterating what you have said before assuming that i didn't understand it then, except i did understand it then and said i thought you were wrong. If you're running a megafactory purely on solar without any brownouts than you fail to take some very important stages of factory growth into consideration during which the bars also need to be correct understandable. And additionally you're still mixing up the discussion about the wording of satisfaction with the display of numbers behind the bar. I already agreed several times that the number display could be improved.

What I mean is you have an alternative locale, why make the locale good for you at the expense of making it worse for people who don't have a second choice? I realise you choose English but you chose it I don't even have a choice.

For the same reason you are trying to make it worse for me. Because i prefer the current situation over what you're suggesting. Also this might be difficult to understand for you if you only know one language but to me using the German locale is really not an option at all. Translations never make things better. At the very very best on extremely rare occasions they manage to be "not worse". And factorio isn't even professionally translated, it's done by a bunch of random fans who volunteer for it and probably have no background in that buisiness whatsoever. And besides: most multiplayer games have to take a common ground, which happens to be English. And there's nothing more annoying than playing a game in one language (i.e. German) while talking to people in another (i.e. English).

Frankly, if you read all my posts thoroughly and still don't even understand what i'm saying, let alone agree with it, then i don't know any other ways to explain why "demand" is wrong here. So what am i supposed to say anymore?

Maybe you should just post a feature request to change the whole display structure. If there were 3 bars:

Production capacity (Supply):
Used capacity (Utilization):
Required capacity (Demand):

would that make it easier for you? As those three bars would now be on the same numeric scale. So demand can be larger than Supply or the other way around. And utilization would either be the same size as supply or same size as demand, unless you have a brownout, where it would be shorter than both.

Edit:
Just to make this perfectly clear: I get your argument that "satisfaction" might be suboptimal wording. My argument is that replacing it with "demand" would be even worse. And if it's to be changed it should be changed to something better.

[JohnyDL]

Also your (hopefully just naive and not malevolent) attempt to discredit my opinion about English because i don't have the birthright of being "native English" is quite frustrating, as is your assumption that my disagreement to what you say is based on my lack of English knowledge. I've played games in English ever since i first got my own computer. I use an English operating sytem and exclusively English software. I write mods in English. At university most literature was English. And i generally communicate more in English than in any other language. So i think i'm quite capable of understanding english. You just stated that you have some sort of reading disorder. Would you have mentioned that if you didn't think that had some effect on your qualification for this discussion as well?

Not malevolent and not discredit you, I'm saying because you have an alternative source of knowledge you might have a better or different understanding of some terms, I don't know for certain but do you consume news, TV, media in german or english? and is that stuff written by german writers with explicit or implicit english translations or by english writers with different knowledge sources? because that can make a difference, take PewDiePie vs NerdCubed as an example both gaming videos, both commentate, both comedy but clearly have different opinions and different grasps on the english language because of where they started from.

Another example I have a German friend who works at a university in Germany he spends most of his professional life in English, comes home from work plays games in English and even joins in online role playing games in English but a concepts like yesterday and tomorrow when I play the RPGs with him are always translated as the day before or the day after, I get it he gets it but the word isn't the best one for the situation

What's your interpretation?

Let me quote myself:

Like i have stated before my concern is exclusively about the wording in relation to the behavior of the bars in the GUI. In factorio the most common scenario is to have a 100% filled "satisfaction" bar next to a partially filled "production" bar. Because you have more capacity than you need. Now if we label those two "demand" and "supply" then suddenly the "demand"-bar is much larger than the supply bar. Which would indicate that you need to build even more capacity if you were going by comparison to those images you posted.

I meant what is your interpretation of those 2 starting points, first time you come to them how did your brain process the images as shown. Your answer doesn't answer my question, it says how you interpret them now. You're saying the demand bar is bigger than the supply bar but that's not all the information that's there, the colour makes a difference the numbers too make a difference you have to take the whole thing together

But I actually think you're kind of advocating for something more like the bars looking different with the word change, like this when partially used rather than green/red and black they are currently

Supply Bar.png (7.26 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

Demand Bar.png (5.87 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

The whole bar is coloured the red bit of the supply is used and the green bit is available or the green bit of the demand is satisfied and the red bit of the demand hasn't got power available.

None of your screenshots show any kind of brownout. Your accumulator example approximates one but you just skip over it like it's not important enough.

No I didn't skip over it there was this image

Electric Grid low power.PNG (69.42 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

and it's not like I edited my post after you made yours I used that picture twice in that post. Two and a half times in this one

And the rest of your post is basically just re-iterating what you have said before assuming that i didn't understand it then,

I think though that something did get lost of my meaning like something got lost in your meanings to me

except i did understand it then and said i thought you were wrong.

And I thought a simpler more pragmatic approach would explain better why I think my way works better than the present solution, I went through the step by step logic I'd have in 4 situations how it is now at full power and low power and how I'd deal with it if it were with supply and demand and I asked you very specifically how you approach the same images in the same situations so I can understand the differences between why I think my solution is better and why you think the current one is better.

If you're running a megafactory purely on solar without any brownouts than you fail to take some very important stages of factory growth into consideration during which the bars also need to be correct understandable. And additionally you're still mixing up the discussion about the wording of satisfaction with the display of numbers behind the bar. I already agreed several times that the number display could be improved.

I simulated a brown out so that I could get one of the pictures. And I used the whole thing because you can only take the whole thing in aggregate because taking elements in isolation is less helpful. The wording also applies to the numbers and the numbers are helpful in comprehension of the bars. Even if they're bad their influence affects the utility of everything else. I mean you're taking the word and the active section of the bar to be all that matters and its not because you can't isolate those bits from the context without destroying all meaning.

What I mean is you have an alternative locale, why make the locale good for you at the expense of making it worse for people who don't have a second choice? I realise you choose English but you chose it I don't even have a choice.

For the same reason you are trying to make it worse for me. Because i prefer the current situation over what you're suggesting. Also this might be difficult to understand for you if you only know one language but to me using the German locale is really not an option at all. Translations never make things better. At the very very best on extremely rare occasions they manage to be "not worse". And factorio isn't even professionally translated, it's done by a bunch of random fans who volunteer for it and probably have no background in that buisiness whatsoever. And besides: most multiplayer games have to take a common ground, which happens to be English. And there's nothing more annoying than playing a game in one language (i.e. German) while talking to people in another (i.e. English).

I really don't see my solution as worse. To you it might be different, but worse? I can't see it. For me it's an improvement in understandability by a huge margin.

But I think I see your point about multiplayer, I can imagine talking in two languages at the same time to be hard.

Frankly, if you read all my posts thoroughly and still don't even understand what i'm saying, let alone agree with it, then i don't know any other ways to explain why "demand" is wrong here. So what am i supposed to say anymore?

One of the ways is to do the same simplistic step by step approach I started my last post with. These are your 4 pictures, I even edited them so you don't have to imagine what they might look like. If this were the first time you ever encountered them what would be the way you thought about them? The thought process? How would you interpret them? Not how you interpret them this instant with all your knowledge but that initial encounter. And not just the bits you want to criticize either how does every element slot together.

Electric Grid full.png (54.59 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

Supply And Demand Surplus.png (48.65 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

Electric Grid low power.PNG (69.42 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

Supply and Demand Deficit.PNG (63.89 KiB) Viewed 1018 times

Maybe you should just post a feature request to change the whole display structure. If there were 3 bars:

Production capacity (Supply):
Used capacity (Utilization):
Required capacity (Demand):

would that make it easier for you? As those three bars would now be on the same numeric scale. So demand can be larger than Supply or the other way around. And utilization would either be the same size as supply or same size as demand, unless you have a brownout, where it would be shorter than both.

Possibly but I see there being too much redundancy in that... I'm not sure I'd need to encounter it 'in the wild' so to speak and I can't see how you're setting it up in my head I might need to image edit a mock up.