Invert Landfill

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

User avatar
Nubm2
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:37 am
Contact:

Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 »

Why do i suggest it?
Because it makes sense, would look awesome and would be fun to have.

How would it work?
1. Either a machine that will be placed or an excavator vehicle, to dig out dirt and create water-filled holes. This method is very time consuming, but automatic. The dirt could even replace the stone in the landfill recipe or extend it.
2. Explosives that will create larger water holes fast. They are very expensive though (~10-20 explosives per blast, result will roughly be a circle with a random shape at the corners)

What had to be changed to make it work? (Balance and gameplay)
Critters would become the ability to swim, but its kinda like walking (they would become very slow though). Walls and turrets can be placed on land to defend, and messed up terrain can be refilled with landfills.

Possible future use:
- Boats and harbours for transportation (moving via waypoints that are used like electric poles. If land is in the path the boat will crash or get stuck and has to be moved manually)
- Bridges (especially railroad)
- Better water usage and control, like in- and outlets for buildings (including treatment plants to prevent pollution spread)
- Rivers and river flow modifications, to connect hydroelectric plants for example

User avatar
Optera
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2822
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:41 am
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Optera »

Try using Waterfill Mod.
Unless they give biters the ability to swim, fly or fill up moots I doubt the devs will add anything like it.

User avatar
Nubm2
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:37 am
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 »

Yeah, thats why i wouldn't use the mod. Its outright OP to use moats as defensive structures without said changes to critters.

To be honest, what im really interessted in is transportation via cargo ships, which would require channels. Would be so awesome!

Glockshna
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:57 am
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Glockshna »

I use the waterfill mod (Linked previously) but with the self imposed limitation that I can't use it in any way for defensive purposes.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12419
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by ssilk »

Won't be implented. Reason already explained by Optera.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

User avatar
Nubm2
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:37 am
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 »

ssilk wrote:Won't be implented. Reason already explained by Optera.
Well, the placing of water might be a mod, but its totally OP (as said by Optera), thats why i suggested it. Woudn't it be rather easy to teach critters how to swim?

The main point was future uses though, cargo ships would be awesome, and especially on maps with a lot of water, e.g. Ocean/island maps. Also it just feels like its a missing part, for example its impossible to revert the landfill effects.

I think its still a valid suggestion, and abuse can be countered with minor changes. After all, players can't swim and too much water can hinder factory growth easily.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12419
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by ssilk »

Nubm2 wrote:The main point was future uses though, cargo ships would be awesome
In that case you made this suggestion in the wrong order. Suggest cargo ships first, then waterfill. 8-) :)

No. ;)

The truth is: In the current game this would unbalance the the complete game if biters learn to swim; nothing is save anymore, so you need to rebalance weapons etc.
Or the other way around: Biters cannot swim, you simply can place water, have silence from the natives: Weapons can be smaller.

Both cannot be target of Factorio. The fact is, that Factorio is in some kind of Tower Defense game (see also the coming 0.15, which includes such a scenario) and that means, that the enemy is forced to walk around the obstacles which come either from player or from game. But if the player can add obstacles over the roads the game has let open, then this principle won't work anymore. It breaks.

So: A simple change makes a lot of work with questionable gameplay-value and changing of a basic game priciple -> won't implement :)
There are mods, that will do that if you need it. But we are talking here about implementing it into vanilla and that is - as hopefully enough explained - not useful in this case.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

User avatar
Nubm2
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:37 am
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by Nubm2 »

ssilk wrote:
Nubm2 wrote:The main point was future uses though, cargo ships would be awesome
In that case you made this suggestion in the wrong order. Suggest cargo ships first, then waterfill. 8-) :)

No. ;)

The truth is: In the current game this would unbalance the the complete game if biters learn to swim; nothing is save anymore, so you need to rebalance weapons etc.
Or the other way around: Biters cannot swim, you simply can place water, have silence from the natives: Weapons can be smaller.

Both cannot be target of Factorio. The fact is, that Factorio is in some kind of Tower Defense game (see also the coming 0.15, which includes such a scenario) and that means, that the enemy is forced to walk around the obstacles which come either from player or from game. But if the player can add obstacles over the roads the game has let open, then this principle won't work anymore. It breaks.

So: A simple change makes a lot of work with questionable gameplay-value and changing of a basic game priciple -> won't implement :)
There are mods, that will do that if you need it. But we are talking here about implementing it into vanilla and that is - as hopefully enough explained - not useful in this case.

Thats funny, i thought i did it in the right order, since cargo ships are useless without the ability to connect lakes. :o

Also i dont see why swiming bitters (and spitters) would corrupt the balance at all. Walls and turrets at the shore will get a bit stronger since they slow down a bit. Also with boats offshore defence is possible. You would need huge bodys of waters around your base or any outpost to prevent attacks though, which wouldn't be worth it due to the high resource costs.
Also, if there is no threat they wouldn't move into water and prefer land routes for movement. If they notice a huge pollution cloud or get attacked first with water in the way however they would swim over and attack.

Needless to say that critters can still attack while in water. Lets say swimming would slow them down by 10-20%, you'd still need a good amount of defence.
Also water has nothing to do with the tower defence style of the game, since it cannot be placed anyways. You had to find a large enough lake first, use an insane amount of landfill and shape out the route (without missclicks). Water is random, so is the spawn location.

Please reconsider it to move it back to Ideas and suggestions. I'll try to add something in my first post to make it more clear that i do not want a major change at all.


[EDIT:] Wait, forget about that. I agree, and will start with another approach and a new topic. The main theme is water, not only the placement of water.
Please let me apologize, english isn't my native language, and im pretty bad with words too.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12419
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Invert Landfill

Post by ssilk »

Eventually useful to make useful suggestion:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=14024 Travel over Water: Boats, Ships, Canus / Bridges / Tunnels
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21378 Footbridges (over pipes, rails, water...), Catwalks, Tunnels
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17734 New types of vehicles (train, tank, car, plane, ship...)

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=262 Water as limited ressource
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=25728 More Water Usages (Aquafarm, enemies, oil riggs...)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

rough
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:57 pm
Contact:

We can not dig out landfill

Post by rough »

For a lot of community it is very annoying that u can not dig out landfill. Could u please make lategame research for digging out landfill, if u can.

User avatar
impetus maximus
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1299
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by impetus maximus »

if you play with mods check out Waterbomb.
agree there should be a vanilla solution though.
Last edited by impetus maximus on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
5thHorseman
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by 5thHorseman »

Infinite walls? Count me in. I love super OP solutions to biters that never break and work forever.
Image Image

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 6639
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Koub »

rough wrote:For a lot of community it is very annoying that u can not dig out landfill. Could u please make lategame research for digging out landfill, if u can.
This will not happen :
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=4973&start=120#p139320
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
Baile nam Fonn
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:48 am
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Baile nam Fonn »

Koub wrote:
rough wrote:For a lot of community it is very annoying that u can not dig out landfill. Could u please make lategame research for digging out landfill, if u can.
This will not happen :
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=4973&start=120#p139320
Notice the distinction in this particular request, though: it's not looking for player-made water, it's looking for an undo button for player-made land.

rough
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:57 pm
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by rough »

Notice the distinction in this particular request, though: it's not looking for player-made water, it's looking for an undo button for player-made land.
Exactly

User avatar
impetus maximus
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1299
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by impetus maximus »

yes, creating water would be OP. however, removing landfill you added would be fine IMO.

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 6639
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Koub »

Oh I see. I hadn't understood that reading the OP.
However, land filled with landfill becomes standard land. I'm afraid making it "undoable" landfill would require creating a new land type (artificial land or something), and I'm not sure it is likely. I'm not a dev though, it might be doable, and coherent with the devs' plans.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

Cribbit
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:35 pm
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by Cribbit »

They've said they're in the process of redoing how landfill and other tile is placed but I don't think that includes removing landfill, it's just the placement algorithm.

nljr
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 2:32 am
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by nljr »

Koub wrote:However, land filled with landfill becomes standard land.
Are you sure? I've found it's impossible to lay paving on landfill. The game KNOWS it isn't standard land.

vanatteveldt
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 938
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: We can not dig out landfill

Post by vanatteveldt »

Re paving: that's probably just because it was too close to the water edge?

Re new land type: I think it would actually be cool to make it look more like big chunks of rocks thrown into the water, or like an iron griddle laid on top of the water. The current green landfill is just way too lush and green for the industrial feel. That would also allow an easier undo option? It is kind of strange that it is more or less the only action whose effects cannot be undone. (same for removing trees, and there are a lot of requests to allow trees to be added back in)

Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”