Tech tree: struggle of hidden technologies

[The_Mell]

Tech tree and its implemention should be revisited in my opinion.
Problem: hidden technologies
In my case i stumbled over processing unit - oh, you little purple b******.
And it's not a bug - it's a feature...

To quote a developer from a bug report topic:

Thanks for the report however this is working as intended. We have never said every recipe unlocked can be crated when it is unlocked. You still have to unlock the prerequisite recipes.

It's done this way because to add prerequisites on every technology would make the technology graph a giant mess of lines.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=50662&p=295046&hilit=tech#p294897

Yeah, i can understand the idea behind it, but if doesn't seem to be logical nor executed in a logical way to me.

I ran into this after i had took a break from Factorio and came back for 0.15.x leaving experimental - so game felt somewhat new to me.
A lot of new things, some things changed, a lot of things forgotten.
Needed to fight off aliens, so let's get some power armor, right?
Research it and craft it, right?
Nope!
Recipe wants processing units (PU for short), but tech tree allows you to research power armor without having advanced electronics 2 (AE2 for short from now on).
Even worse: it doesn't even show AE2 as a prerequisite!



Problem 1:
I as a player had to find out what was wrong. Factorio doesn't help here very much.
I had to realize power armor uses PUs and then find manually the technology AE2 which enables me to produce them.

Problem 2:
Factorio gives a wrong impression with its tech tree that you can/could/should/will find everything by clicking predecessor technologies (or successor for the other way).
No, you won't, it's inconsistent.

Problem 3:
Even with the knowledge of an intended feature i must say it is not implemented user friendly.
Kicking out connections in tech tree makes it nice for you programers, i can understand it, because it is a single point of change and not a nightmare of handling.
Technology specific sub tech tress (showing neccessary information without cluttering) would need extra work both in creation and service - but those would work for your customers.


Problem 4:
Especially with PUs and AE2 i came to wonder: Why?!?
Note: Here's the point where i might slip towards a rant. I haven't checked the outcome of a complete tree and i don't want to.

Electronics shows 21 following techologies, advanced electronics shows 23, but AE2 just two?
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107212299
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107212406
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204608

All type of modules 2 have a lean tree of 3 single steps.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204531
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204462
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204384
Portable fusion reactor and energy shield MK2 even 5.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204149
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204046
But it's included atomic bomb where lines becomes a spaghetti mess at one point.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... 1107204302



Solution:
Have the tech tree with every connection and dependecy in it.



Yes, yes, i know, spaghetti lines, overview and so on.
I'm going to post ideas over at right forum part with details later. Now just a quick summary:
Colors and/or limited steps of technologies.
*edit*
Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51765

[GodricSeer]

While I see your point, there is a good reason for this to not be the case. Specifically sometimes you research a technologies not for the recipes that it unlocks, but for other technologies it is prereq of. For example Imagine there are three recipes and three technologies:

Tech1 unlocks Rec1,
Tech2 unlocks Rec2 and Tech3
Tech3 unlocks Rec3

Rec2 depends on the output of Rec1. Rec3 does not require the output of Rec1 or Rec2.

Now imagine a player wanted to make Rec3. If the tech tree worked like you wanted, they would have to research Tech1 and Tech2. In the current game they don't need Tech1, because they don't care about Rec2.

On the other hand, I think "terminal" recipes and technologies, such as power armor where they only unlock either recipes or technologies that are upgrades on themselves, should likely require the technologies for all the inputs. It's just that enforcing that across all technologies would bloat dependencies in ways that don't make sense.

[nonceun]

I had this problem, too. I researched Power Armor very quickly, wanted to craft some, and couldn't because I needed blue circuits. Okay, I'll craft blue circuits. but they're not in the menu of things I can craft. I built an Assembling Machine 2 because I thought maybe blue circuits could only be built in one of those, but it couldn't do them, either. I built a Chemical Plant thinking maybe they need to be in something that processes liquids, but nope. I eventually had to go to the wiki to learn how to build blue circuits, which required researching AE2 first. At the moment, I don't think this is discoverable in-game. If you don't want to put in a research dependency, fine. but at least have some way for players to figure out what they're missing without closing the game and going online.

[DaveMcW]

Making a good tech tree is hard. Really hard.

You basically have to make it your #1 design goal. Discard any technology that doesn't fit. Add questionable prerequisites to break up links that are too long. Throw modders under the bus, because your perfect tech tree has no room for expansion.

The Factorio devs are not willing to make those kinds of compromises.

Rant

When I was a kid and bought Civ2, there was a beautiful tech tree poster in the box. This made a lasting impression on me about what a tech tree should look like. Clearly the devs never had an experience like this.

[Baile nam Fonn]

Rant

When I was a kid and bought Civ2, there was a beautiful tech tree poster in the box. This made a lasting impression on me about what a tech tree should look like. Clearly the devs never had an experience like this.

Off-topic rant-related tangent

Oooh, I adored Civ franchise tech tree posters as a kid! Pored over them for hours while hatching what we imagined were grand strategies with my older brother. *sigh* Ahh, the sweet nostalgia.

My one small gripe with the tech tree is that there is no special highlighting (afaik) for the techs that unlock the various science vials.
I always manage to forget one or another and then spend an inordinate amount of time scrounging around for it.

[Bilka]

I always manage to forget one or another and then spend an inordinate amount of time scrounging around for it.

Ever heard of ctrl+f, sometimes also called "search"?

[Baile nam Fonn]

I always manage to forget one or another and then spend an inordinate amount of time scrounging around for it.

Ever heard of ctrl+f, sometimes also called "search"?

Yeah, I tend to forget that one too.
Still, I'd be happy to see a little QoL tweaking in the tech tree UI.

[Xeorm]

Seems like it might need a revisiting if that's the case. From what I remember they've stated that part of the goal of the technology system in general is to help teach the game. By unlocking things tech by tech they can more easily guide the player on what they need to do and don't get cases like this where they go for one item and find they can't actually make it.