[0.15.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[bobingabout]

We've toyed with the idea of a group effort mod before. Bob's mods, DyTech and 5Dim were all going to use the same Ores mod... that didn't end up happening, DyTech did his own thing while 5Dim started using Bob's Ores mod. I did however make a large change to the structure of it away from a rigid "This is Tin ore definition" to "Here is a configuration for tin, run it through a dynamic ore generator"... and the Dynamic ore generator was moved into my library at a later date.

With the Gasses... There's basically a disagreement there with what the standard should be. If you look at base game fluids, you have "water", "crude-oil" and "sulfuric-acid", amongst others. Those that could be considered gasses are "steam" and "petroleum-gas"
Therefore, going by base game convention, all fluids should be named "lithia-water", "nitric-acid" etc, then "oxygen", "nitrogen-dioxide" etc.

However, many have badgered me from using this convention, stating that I should instead use "fluid-lithia-water" and "gas-oxygen". It doesn't fit base game convention I am trying to stick to, and therefore I didn't adopt it, and that's why you have some of these issues.

I would be perfectly happy to go for a standard "Fluids and Gasses" mod, as long as the list of what fluids and gasses available are agreed upon. I wouldn't even be against including ones that I don't use, as long as it's not going to cause an issue for dynamic recipes (A fluid exists, so the recipe uses it, even though there is no way to generate that fluid in the current mod configuration)

There are two issues I would have with such a pack. The first is what icons should be used. Personally, I'd vote for the atomic structure icons like Sulfuric acid and petroleum gas, as I have used widely throughout my mod, but I already know others like Angel would want to go for his own icon style instead.
The second issue is... who manages the mod? I mean, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a collaborative effort, but at the end of the day, there would be a single mod owner who does the management, such as uploading it to the mod portal.

[Zyrconia]

We've toyed with the idea of a group effort mod before. Bob's mods, DyTech and 5Dim were all going to use the same Ores mod... that didn't end up happening, DyTech did his own thing while 5Dim started using Bob's Ores mod. I did however make a large change to the structure of it away from a rigid "This is Tin ore definition" to "Here is a configuration for tin, run it through a dynamic ore generator"... and the Dynamic ore generator was moved into my library at a later date.

With the Gasses... There's basically a disagreement there with what the standard should be. If you look at base game fluids, you have "water", "crude-oil" and "sulfuric-acid", amongst others. Those that could be considered gasses are "steam" and "petroleum-gas"
Therefore, going by base game convention, all fluids should be named "lithia-water", "nitric-acid" etc, then "oxygen", "nitrogen-dioxide" etc.

However, many have badgered me from using this convention, stating that I should instead use "fluid-lithia-water" and "gas-oxygen". It doesn't fit base game convention I am trying to stick to, and therefore I didn't adopt it, and that's why you have some of these issues.

I would be perfectly happy to go for a standard "Fluids and Gasses" mod, as long as the list of what fluids and gasses available are agreed upon. I wouldn't even be against including ones that I don't use, as long as it's not going to cause an issue for dynamic recipes (A fluid exists, so the recipe uses it, even though there is no way to generate that fluid in the current mod configuration)

There are two issues I would have with such a pack. The first is what icons should be used. Personally, I'd vote for the atomic structure icons like Sulfuric acid and petroleum gas, as I have used widely throughout my mod, but I already know others like Angel would want to go for his own icon style instead.
The second issue is... who manages the mod? I mean, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a collaborative effort, but at the end of the day, there would be a single mod owner who does the management, such as uploading it to the mod portal.

Yes, I know there are some obstacles. Not easy to do. I only had this idea when faced with all the redundancy and confusion with both mod packs. I can envision a Bob's + Angel's so polished that you would swear that it is the official way to play and in the official version there is no redundancy.

For icons, I would put "generic gas icon" into the new mod.

You would override the icon with your style. Angel with his. The new mod would be a "resource" mod and not meant to be used on its own. I don't know enough about modding and order of dependencies to tell you what happens when you both override the icon, but I'm expecting Angel to override your override since it comes later in the dependency chain.

[bobingabout]

whoever loads last is the one that gets used. also based on when you over ride the icon (data/updates/final fixes).

[Zyrconia]

Wow, I'm really surprised that neither Bob or Angel messed with production science packs.

It is pretty much the only easy thing to get in my game...

Edit: OK, you changed it a bot, with the drills. What I meant is that it does not require some fancy new product that takes 2 hours to build an infrastructure for...

[bobingabout]

You should require some of the new things, purely through the need of electronics. however, you are right, I don't edit the production science too much.

[Recon777]

I just noticed something odd about the power poles recipes.

There's an anomaly with the Substation Mk2 recipe. It requires Aluminum Plates instead of Brass Plates. The Mk2 medium and big power poles require brass, but the substation is different. Looks like an oversight.

All the others (Mk1, 3, 4) are consistent over all three types of power poles. Mk1 requires steel and copper. Mk3 requires titanium and insulated wire. Mk4 requires nitinol and gilded wire. It's just the Mk2 substation specifically which breaks the pattern and requires aluminum all by itself. Any chance you could fix this?

[bobingabout]

Maybe.

I think Aluminium and Brass are both Tier 2 metals, and are both under utilised.

I need to draw up a chart of what is what, and what it should be used for.

For example, look at this tier in a lot of other places, and you'll find it goes Steel with iron/Steel pipes/bearings etc, to Aluminium with Steel/Brass Pipes/bearings, then to Titanium with Titanium pipes/bearings. Aluminium and Brass seem quite interchangeable for this second tier (And that's likely why it ended up getting used, as the poles and substations were written at a different time)

The question is, should the substation be changed to use brass, or should the poles be changed to use Aluminium? Or neither, the poles require the structural strength that brass provides, vs more of a protective shell that aluminium can provide on the substation.

I'm so out of touch I don't even know what's in my mod anymore >.<

[Zyrconia]

Well, I'm no expert, but so far, both brass and aluminium are not needed. Add invar to the list.

They all help and are needed in trace amounts, but often a handful of furnaces, even as low as 2 will keep you going for the first 60 hours if you play at a leisurely pace.

Thing you need: iron, copper, tin, quarts, gold.

I have never reached super end-game before to see what you need, but the list above will take you to post blue science, to a large and established base.

Angel adds lead to batteries, so I add it to same list of top tier ores.

Edit: I'll get back to you once I finally launch a rocket .

[bobingabout]

Angel adds lead to batteries, so I add it to same list of top tier ores.

I add lead to batteries.

[Zyrconia]

Angel adds lead to batteries, so I add it to same list of top tier ores.

I add lead to batteries.

Yeah, I can't keep up with all the versions and changes...

[Recon777]

I think Aluminium and Brass are both Tier 2 metals, and are both under utilised.
...
I'm so out of touch I don't even know what's in my mod anymore >.<

I use a mod (I can check the name if you need it) which puts a little button on the screen that lets me know what ANY material is used for. Kind of a reverse recipe lookup. It's extremely handy for finding out whether I need to send a material down the bus further. Some materials are VERY rarely used. I can probably come up with a list if you'd like.

As for aluminum/brass, I really don't mind which you choose as long as it's consistent. Having that one substation requiring aluminum instead of brass makes the power distribution assembly line rather awkward.

[Zyrconia]

Angel adds lead to batteries, so I add it to same list of top tier ores.

I add lead to batteries.

Yeah, I can't keep up with all the versions and changes...

In retrospect, that comment might be perceived as rude. Sorry, it was not my intention! What I meant to say that I was sure that at one point batteries did not require tin, then I started an Angel's campaign, and they required tin and I can no longer keep track of who updates which recipe when with all these mods and versions...

[mrvn]

We've toyed with the idea of a group effort mod before. Bob's mods, DyTech and 5Dim were all going to use the same Ores mod... that didn't end up happening, DyTech did his own thing while 5Dim started using Bob's Ores mod. I did however make a large change to the structure of it away from a rigid "This is Tin ore definition" to "Here is a configuration for tin, run it through a dynamic ore generator"... and the Dynamic ore generator was moved into my library at a later date.

With the Gasses... There's basically a disagreement there with what the standard should be. If you look at base game fluids, you have "water", "crude-oil" and "sulfuric-acid", amongst others. Those that could be considered gasses are "steam" and "petroleum-gas"
Therefore, going by base game convention, all fluids should be named "lithia-water", "nitric-acid" etc, then "oxygen", "nitrogen-dioxide" etc.

However, many have badgered me from using this convention, stating that I should instead use "fluid-lithia-water" and "gas-oxygen". It doesn't fit base game convention I am trying to stick to, and therefore I didn't adopt it, and that's why you have some of these issues.

I would be perfectly happy to go for a standard "Fluids and Gasses" mod, as long as the list of what fluids and gasses available are agreed upon. I wouldn't even be against including ones that I don't use, as long as it's not going to cause an issue for dynamic recipes (A fluid exists, so the recipe uses it, even though there is no way to generate that fluid in the current mod configuration)

There are two issues I would have with such a pack. The first is what icons should be used. Personally, I'd vote for the atomic structure icons like Sulfuric acid and petroleum gas, as I have used widely throughout my mod, but I already know others like Angel would want to go for his own icon style instead.
The second issue is... who manages the mod? I mean, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a collaborative effort, but at the end of the day, there would be a single mod owner who does the management, such as uploading it to the mod portal.

The vanilla game did not start out with fluids and gases. Everything was just a fluid. Steam was just hot water. Everything gets put into barrels. They never made a distinction between fluid and gas. With yours and Angels mods now you have gases that behave differently from fluids. For example you can vent a gas but not a fluid. You have different pumps and different canisters. So I think it makes sense to add some clear indication weather something is a fluid or a gas.

You mentioned an ore generator. How about adding a fluid / gas generator too? The generator would be in the common mod and have a list of known fluids and gasses. Other mods would then just call the generator to activate one of the known fluids or gases or pass it the full definition for uncommon fluids or gases.

As for icons that is tricky. I have no idea how you decide whos icon to use now in case of conflicts but it seems to work. Do the same with the generator.

[bobingabout]

Angel adds lead to batteries, so I add it to same list of top tier ores.

I add lead to batteries.

Yeah, I can't keep up with all the versions and changes...

In retrospect, that comment might be perceived as rude. Sorry, it was not my intention! What I meant to say that I was sure that at one point batteries did not require tin, then I started an Angel's campaign, and they required tin and I can no longer keep track of who updates which recipe when with all these mods and versions...

you said lead, now you're saying Tin

I wouldn't have called it rude anyway, I'd call it "To the point", and my reply was pretty blunt to begin with, so...
Also, I can't keep track of versions and changes either!

[bobingabout]

...

The vanilla game did not start out with fluids and gases. Everything was just a fluid. Steam was just hot water. Everything gets put into barrels. They never made a distinction between fluid and gas. With yours and Angels mods now you have gases that behave differently from fluids. For example you can vent a gas but not a fluid. You have different pumps and different canisters. So I think it makes sense to add some clear indication weather something is a fluid or a gas.

You mentioned an ore generator. How about adding a fluid / gas generator too? The generator would be in the common mod and have a list of known fluids and gasses. Other mods would then just call the generator to activate one of the known fluids or gases or pass it the full definition for uncommon fluids or gases.

As for icons that is tricky. I have no idea how you decide whos icon to use now in case of conflicts but it seems to work. Do the same with the generator.

A fluid/gas generator isn't really all that needed, it's just one small block.

A resource, or "ore" as I called it can be massively complex with multiple code blocks (resource, particle, item, autoplace control, noise layer etc), and some of those blocks contain other blocks (resource for example contains autoplace settings). A generator was required to produce the code dynamically. in this case, with only half a dozen lines of code (some data, some function calls), you can tell my mod to create everything required for a new resource, and give an item as a result.

[Arch666Angel]

A "resource mod" is a nice idea, but the problem, as bob already pointed out, is as always: agreeing to a way and look it will go along. The other thing is that you kinda have to encourage people to use it and changing both our mod to use it would be a huge task, even if it is only changing an icon path in most cases.
So yeah nice idea but I'm not interested in investing the amount of time in setting that up, changing all the mods and maintaining the thing, because I'm already quiet busy with my own mods. What would be more reasonable is something bob hints at, that you have a general mod that adds the actual resources on the ground for example, just the ores/patches with different gfx to chose from and the machine to mine it. Then add functions to create resources to your needs. So if someone starts up a new mod and need a patch of "quadlium" you just add a dependency on the mod and add the function call.

[bobingabout]

What would be more reasonable is something bob hints at, that you have a general mod that adds the actual resources on the ground for example, just the ores/patches with different gfx to chose from and the machine to mine it. Then add functions to create resources to your needs. So if someone starts up a new mod and need a patch of "quadlium" you just add a dependency on the mod and add the function call.

My library already does that, with just a few lines, you can create ores just like in my mod, based on the existing ore graphics, and colour is done via a tint. Latest version is even able to create icons, and ores with a glow like Uranium. There's an oil patch template too, though fluids does need a bit of extra work.

My ores mod is basically just a set of these settings pre-defined, and a bit of extra magic worked in. (Fluids for the water patches, unique graphics for the gems ore, a few extra items like the multiple types of gems, etc.)

[mrvn]

...

The vanilla game did not start out with fluids and gases. Everything was just a fluid. Steam was just hot water. Everything gets put into barrels. They never made a distinction between fluid and gas. With yours and Angels mods now you have gases that behave differently from fluids. For example you can vent a gas but not a fluid. You have different pumps and different canisters. So I think it makes sense to add some clear indication weather something is a fluid or a gas.

You mentioned an ore generator. How about adding a fluid / gas generator too? The generator would be in the common mod and have a list of known fluids and gasses. Other mods would then just call the generator to activate one of the known fluids or gases or pass it the full definition for uncommon fluids or gases.

As for icons that is tricky. I have no idea how you decide whos icon to use now in case of conflicts but it seems to work. Do the same with the generator.

A fluid/gas generator isn't really all that needed, it's just one small block.

A resource, or "ore" as I called it can be massively complex with multiple code blocks (resource, particle, item, autoplace control, noise layer etc), and some of those blocks contain other blocks (resource for example contains autoplace settings). A generator was required to produce the code dynamically. in this case, with only half a dozen lines of code (some data, some function calls), you can tell my mod to create everything required for a new resource, and give an item as a result.

You are fogetting the botteling and unbotteling recipes. Any other dynamic recipes for buildings that take fluids (or filled barrels) in general. E.g. the void pump.

[mrvn]

What would be more reasonable is something bob hints at, that you have a general mod that adds the actual resources on the ground for example, just the ores/patches with different gfx to chose from and the machine to mine it. Then add functions to create resources to your needs. So if someone starts up a new mod and need a patch of "quadlium" you just add a dependency on the mod and add the function call.

My library already does that, with just a few lines, you can create ores just like in my mod, based on the existing ore graphics, and colour is done via a tint. Latest version is even able to create icons, and ores with a glow like Uranium. There's an oil patch template too, though fluids does need a bit of extra work.

My ores mod is basically just a set of these settings pre-defined, and a bit of extra magic worked in. (Fluids for the water patches, unique graphics for the gems ore, a few extra items like the multiple types of gems, etc.)

So now who will patch Angels mods to use that function?

[chadsteam]

So, this seems like a stupid question in the midst of the highly detailed and technical mod discussion taking place...but my searches haven't resulted in helping with what I'm looking for.

First, Bob and Angel's mods are amazing. I can't play Factorio without them and I really enjoy the complexity of using them together. My only issue at the moment is that I feel like I'm jumping through hoops with Angel's refining to avoid producing raw nickel ore. Besides complimenting a few higher tier recipes, what is nickel used for? I feel like I'm missing something due to the high quantity of nickel the early-mid game produces as a side product.