Pirating as a 'demo'. Your opinions?

[Alfdaur]

Well first of, pirating is not theft. When you download something you make a copy of the origional. After many broken games I find scepticisme quite normal. Also, I find the notion of invasive DRM quite offensive. But, if you like the pirated software, please give the creator a small donation so he/she can make more.

Also,

Remember! When you're pirating, you're downloading comunism!

[Aza-Industries]

My opinion: even discussing this theme is not a good idea.

Why?

I don't really believe any topic or "theme" is not a good idea to discuss. Lack of discussion on any topic, is by it's very definition, the willful spreading of ignorance.

Besides, You sound like some repressive Orwellian psychopath when you say things like this. Imagine a russian KGB accent or the head of the NSA when you say the phrase "Discussing this topis is not a good idea my comrade/patriotic friend". Either elaborate why you think it is a bad idea, or maybe let others discuss whatever they wish without your uneasy or afraid wish for restriction of discussion. I do appreciate the other thread though, although it might be fun to revisit this topic in the non-flamewar format.

If that's how you react after someone states his opinion I'm not sure you can discuss anything without turning into some personal flame.

Who goes around saying people sound like "repressive Orwellian psychopath" in normal conversation?

ssilk has been around for way longer than you dude and he hasn't posted a cheap attack on character in all of his posts. Show some respect to other people if you want to have normal discussions about stuff.

As for the topic, I don't see a point to it.
Most often it's brought up on dev/game forums to get a rise out of people without any real investment in the topic from the OP. There are plenty of forums that are created for the sole purpose of debatable topics, you could always seek those out if you want a deeper discussion on it.
But the dev's have posted their opinion and so have many players. It's not specifically about factorio either.
It would appear it's done and dusted IMO.

If anything this should at-least be moved to off-topic

EDIT: as a whole, piracy has been discussed to death on the internet. If you're interested in peoples opinions of it, everyone will pretty much fit into the established groups. You can read all about it in many places. As a topic of discussion I can't see how anything new can be brought to the table or anything new established. So like I said, I don't see the point.

[therapist]

If that's how you react after someone states his opinion I'm not sure you can discuss anything without turning into some personal flame.

Who goes around saying people sound like "repressive Orwellian psychopath" in normal conversation?

Yeah, I don't react well to the useless opinion that any topic is not worth discussing. Ignorance is something I have a real problem with. The Orwellian thing is half a joke but half to illustrate the point that asking people not to discuss ANY topic, is ridiculous. The classic meaning of ridiculous being, to be worthy of ridicule. Sorry if it leads to a flamewar, but a flamewar is at least a discussion, although I would hope to avoid flaming if at all possible.

ssilk has been around for way longer than you dude and he hasn't posted a cheap attack on character in all of his posts. Show some respect to other people if you want to have normal discussions about stuff.

I don't believe I attacked his character at all, I don't know a thing about his character except he finds some discussion to be without value, a point we disagre on.
I DID attack his words and his attempt to discourage discussion of ANY topic that people want to freely discuss. I haven't attacked any person's character in all of my posts either, but I don't mind questioning or being critical of the opinion that discussion should be shut down or marginalized or that any discussion is useless and not worth discussing. Maybe thats where myself and ssilk differ?

As for the topic, I don't see a point to it.
Most often it's brought up on dev/game forums to get a rise out of people without any real investment in the topic from the OP. There are plenty of forums that are created for the sole purpose of debatable topics, you could always seek those out if you want a deeper discussion on it.
But the dev's have posted their opinion and so have many players. It's not specifically about factorio either.
It would appear it's done and dusted IMO.

Well, as you said, thats your opinion. The OP asked it again, and I, for one, think it might be nice to have this discussion. Since we disagree, one option might be to let the people who want to discuss it, discuss it, and all those who wish not to discuss it, are free to not discuss it and go read another thread.

Is that fair?

[Aza-Industries]

It seems like the only reason you're pressing this issue is BECAUSE someone said it wasn't a good idea to discuss it.

The discussion seems to died out either way which probably indicated most people are done discussing it because they have either read or contributed all they have to say on the topic.
Those people appear to have been satisfied with that.
No one has actually stopped anyone from talking about it.

If you really do want to continue talking about piracy. Go post it in off-topic as it's not general discussion about factorio.

[therapist]

Just saw your edit.

EDIT: as a whole, piracy has been discussed to death on the internet. If you're interested in peoples opinions of it, everyone will pretty much fit into the established groups. You can read all about it in many places.

Agreed, but I think we have a special case, and a special audience here. This is an indie game, not a big company we are pirating from, this may change details of the discussion or the ethics. Also, this audience is made of people who LOVE factorio, a very intresting source of opinions, rather than just the general populace's opinion you might find in the youtube comment section of a video about piracy.

As a topic of discussion I can't see how anything new can be brought to the table or anything new established. So like I said, I don't see the point.

Then for the love of god man, what are you doing discussing it? What other motive could you have other than to discourage others from talking about this topic.

Again I will submit this question to you: Can you agree to let others have their discussion without you if you don't find value in the discussion?

Must you insist on questioning the validity of the very discussion in a thread that isn't centered around the topic of validity or usefulness of discussion of a topic, we are talking about the topic of opinion on trying games before you buy them, please either discuss the topic, either in the positive or negative, or choose not to discuss the topic if you disapprove of it thusly. Standing here in this space, and repeating how much you disapprove and find the discussion useless will not end the discussion, but you could simple not post in, and ignore this topic if you don't find any merit in the discussion. Just don't read it, post about something else if you really disapprove.

[therapist]

It seems like the only reason you're pressing this issue is BECAUSE someone said it wasn't a good idea to discuss it.

I insist on discussing it because I find it an intresting and relevant topic, if I didn't, I would express this by not posting.

The discussion seems to died out either way which probably indicated most people are done discussing it because they have either read or contributed all they have to say on the topic.
Those people appear to have been satisfied with that.
No one has actually stopped anyone from talking about it.

Never accused anyone of censorship, I simple don;t understand why you feel the need to voice disapproval and discouragement of discussing the topic, I really want you to explain this to me. I was under the impression the discussion just started today, and the people who started this topic will likely be back tomorrow to reply to the things that have been said here, we could both speculate until we are blue in the face, or we could just wait till tomorrow and see if the thread dies off forever.

If you really do want to continue talking about piracy. Go post it in off-topic as it's not general discussion about factorio.

We ARE NOT discussing piracy and the ethics and morals of piracy in general, we were TRYING to discuss how people feel about pirateing the game FACTORIO as a demo to play the game before you buy it. Seems like General Discussion of Factorio to me, but hey maybe not. This thread has become more about the topic of "Should we even talk about the topic of piracy?" and that most definitely belongs in Off-Topic, or possibly it belongs in the crash can. I recommend we discuss the topic of Pirating Factorio as a demo of Factorio, but your questions of whether or not the topic is fair or useful to talk about might make their own off-topic thread.

Maybe the moderators can separate yours and ssilks posts where you talk about IF this discussion is valid into its own thread, and the rest of us can keep talking about what we think of pirating factorio as a demo? Then we can both discuss the topics we find relevant. They can both be moved the off-topic section, who flipping cares where they are? Are you really mad about the location of this thread?

Edit:
Note: the sentences with question marks (looks like this: ???) are Questions and if they follow a quote of yours, I am asking you a question. You don't have to answer them I guess, but thats kind of rude. I'm working really hard to respond to the things you say point by point and cutting up quotes of what you say for clarity so you know specifically what I'm addressing. Sorry I know english isn't everyone's first language here.

[Aza-Industries]

I'm not discussing piracy, I never said I didn't approve of it or the discussions.

I responded to you because of your attitude towards other people.

If you really want to keep talking about it. Go ahead, but don't expect everyone to like it and you probably shouldn't respond to people saying not to talk about it.
If you're dedicated to the topic it should keep going without turning it into a pissing match about something else.

Best of luck.

[therapist]

I'm not discussing piracy, I never said I didn't approve of it or the discussions.

You said you don't see the point in continuing discussion about this topic (Do you need me to go quote you saying more than once you don't think this discussion needs to continue?), my response was, then why are you here posting? Then I asked you several times, can we be allowed to discuss it without you? You avoided, and continue to avoid that question.

I responded to you because of your attitude towards other people.

I am indifferent about other people, it is the opinion that any discussion is useless or without merit that I respond with a healthy amount of disdain towards.

If you really want to keep talking about it. Go ahead, but don't expect everyone to like it and you probably shouldn't respond to people saying not to talk about it.

Well thanks for your permission, and I totally agree, it would be pretty stupid to keep posting about how people shouldn't even bother discussing a topic or to insult people by saying there is no point at all to their discussion. Only a real jerk would do something like that.

If you're dedicated to the topic it should keep going without turning it into a pissing match about something else.

I show my dedication by aggressively questioning and critiquing the idea that this discussion isn't worth having. It isn't a "pissing match" it's an opinion I express to show there are people who disagree with the mean spirited idea that this discussion should end or will be ultimately fruitless.

I really do appreciate you seeing the futility of questioning our motives and leaving the thread to the people who want to keep discussing it, I'm sorry we couldn't dispense with each other in a friendlier fashion, but this is a very polarizing topic, and the nature of a video game fanbase is to be rabid in the defense of the game you enjoy so much.

[ssilk]

You simply CANT forbid the discussion even if you wanted to.

I haven't, and by the way: this is off-topic.

I do appreciate the links to the flamewar though, although some of it needs to be summarized or I probably won't end up making it through a single post without skimming.

Well, short summary: Malokin used more or less exactly the same arguments as you. I want to avoid 23 pages of useless discussion. That's all.

And as moderator speaking:
@Aza-Industries and therapist: please return back to the theme. this was about your opinions of pirating a demo.

Reason: this meta-discussionis is off topic.

Please create a new thread for that, if you really want to discuss this. (but - again - in my opinion it is really quite meta, I see that, when I try to think about the name of that topic... And you can see that in Malokins posts, it was really near the same arguments)

Otherwise I need to close this thread, not cause of shutting down a discussion, just cause I don't want to read all this, and many others too.

[therapist]

Thanks ssilk, maybe you could do this thread a favor and move your posts about this discussion being "not a good idea", Aza-Industries critiques of my posts and attitude, and my posts critiquing him about how the discussion is worth having into a separate thread, or even just delete them. That way all the off-topic stuff can be separated from this discussion because this thread is fairly poo poo filled at this point and I think it really detracts from the discussion of how pirating is a viable avenue to sales.

This all begs to question, What do you all think of the newly introduced DRM into factorio? Obviously this is a tactic the devs use to prevent people from pirating the game to try it as a demo. It is safe to assume forcing us all to login in order to use the updater is possibly a practice run for using the login system for multiplayer. Will you all be open to trying a multiplayer version of the game that uses pirated or altered login servers for pirated multiplayer? The steam version of the game that doesn't require people to have an account on factorio.com will likely make it easy to produce a pirate multiplayer version that either alters the login system or disables it and uses pirated servers for mutiplay.

I personally support actions like these as I am against DRM in any form, it will be nice to have an idea what the multiplayer is like and a chance to test how multiplayer works before you buy the game. I sincerely doubt the devs will give us a chance to try multiplayer before we shell out money, so it will be up to the pirates to offer the ability to try out multiplayer before you commit to spending money. Pirated multiplayer of steam games are becoming fairly common, and I personally tried left4dead multiplayer this way and didn't end up buying or ever playing the game after that. I might even give CS:GO pirated mulitplayer servers a try if the hackers arn't too bad, admins typically ban the hackers even on pirate servers.

I guess I'm asking, for those of you who support the "try it before you buy it" mentality, does pirated muliplay fall into this category for you like it does for me? DRM on updates was a big shock for me when I upgraded from 0.8 to 0.9, I wasn't aware the factorio devs were in support of DRM in this way, and if they continue DRM into the multiplayer (almost 100% certainty they will) I really hope the pirate programmers get cracking, as it were, on a solution so people can try out the multiplay with or without paying for the game first.

[ssilk]

Well, I keep it here. Cause, when others come they don't see it and the whole process begins from start.

Please continue meat here: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=4038

[Sander Buruma]

I considered pirating for a bit but I saw there was a demo and it showed me enough to make me want to buy the game. Why pirate when the demo is a good enough try out? If you're not going to pay then don't pirate it either imo.

[therapist]

I considered pirating for a bit but I saw there was a demo and it showed me enough to make me want to buy the game. Why pirate when the demo is a good enough try out? If you're not going to pay then don't pirate it either imo.

Interesting, so in your opinion, even if you just pirate the game to try it out, you believe you should have to pay for the game whether you intend to continue playing it or not? Glad you liked the demo, not everyone gets such a good impression of factorio from it though.

[cube]

What do you all think of the newly introduced DRM into factorio?

We have DRM? That's news for me.

[drs9999]

We have DRM? That's news for me.

IRONY

Maybe you are not so much involved into the project than you thought!?

/IRONY

[Gammro]

I wouldn't call an updater which needs a login/pw DRM. It doesn't hinder the usage of the product for anyone who has the game(even if it's pirated), it just doesn't allow you to update from the official source if you don't have a login/pw. This something I don't think a pirate has any right to. Neither would permitting access to official servers be something I consider a right for pirates.

I do pirate myself, but always with the thought: I didn't pay, so I get no official support, and if something goes wrong, I have to work it out myself. If I want to use services like official MP and updating, I have to buy the product.

[Colombo]

There are so many aspects to this...

Normally when you buy something you have some rights as a consumer thanks to your national consumer protection laws. This often looks something like a right to have a broken/defective product "repaired, replaced or refunded". Buying games over the web usually goes outside the boundaries of your national laws, so you lose all those rights. Sometimes the merchant/manufacturer will offer some rights, but it's at their discretion and they are the judge and jury on any matter - unless you're willing to spend the money perusing the matter in the courts of their country and enforcing whatever laws that country has on them.

Combine that with the fact we now live in an era of alphas and kickstarter games along with rapid game prototyping engines and things like Unity. It's increasingly easy to make something that resembles a game and get it on a website with a payment gateway and viola the cash starts rolling in. The kickstarter market in particular is very good at selling hopes and dreams. This is fine so long as you're aware that when you pledge money it's towards something that might never eventuate. Even assuming the developer has the best of intentions!

There are sooo many games these days and they're all very cheap, comparing one particular game to "cheaper than a meal out" is pointless, because you don't eat 100 meals per day It's also not comparable to stealing a meal and deciding later if you want to pay for it because the meal is not cooked yet. You can't know if they're going to burn it, for example. Most comparisons about piracy relate to traditional markets; goods and services etc. The situation we're talking about is more nuanced. The short story is it's impossible to be an informed consumer.

I have he misfortune of buying a certain game after it was released and found it to be enormously buggy and incomplete. It took me about 30 hours of gameplay to understand what was wrong with the game and I made detailed bug reports on the forum which received pages of responses from other people and the developer acknowledged and said he was working on those bugs. So I wasn't worried because the developer had a good history of releasing patches and had written on his forums about all the upcoming changes and had made written commitments like "I'll be working on <game> for years to come". Then he went on holidays with his wife for about a month, which was a well deserved break after the crunch period. When he came back there was almost no patches for two months, only a couple of very trivial things. Then he made an announcement that multiplayer (a core feature advertised on the kickstarter campaign) would not be included. Later still he announced that he had been working on a new version of the game in an entirely new game engine. This set of huge alarm bells in the community, and sure enough about a month later the developer announced that he was working full time on the sequel. One year later, this game is still in the trash heap, unplayable and unfinished.

So... moral of the story, despite the best of intentions there can be a big gap between hopes and dreams advertised on alpha games and your personal expectations and what might actually eventuate.

What does that mean in terms of the morality of pirating a game? If you have no intention of buying the game ever, obviously you should not pirate it. If there is a demo, you should first try that. Beyond that, I can't say.

Care to say what game and what dev it was? The word must spread. We must stay informed!

[undeadnightorc]

Demos don't exist in a vacuum nowadays. Virtually any game has a LP on youtube out there. I myself was attracted to Factorio after watching a youtube LP. Sure, maybe the demo isn't enough, but surely hours upon hours of youtube LPs can give a potential buyer a good impression of a game without having to pirate it?

[muzzy]

Demos don't exist in a vacuum nowadays. Virtually any game has a LP on youtube out there. I myself was attracted to Factorio after watching a youtube LP. Sure, maybe the demo isn't enough, but surely hours upon hours of youtube LPs can give a potential buyer a good impression of a game without having to pirate it?

And ruin the experience of playing it yourself? If you watch someone else play, sometimes you spoil the game and lose your money's worth...

Everyone's different. I believe everyone should just do whatever they personally feel is the right thing to do. If that means torrenting the game and never paying, then that's that.

PS. My respect towards copyright law kinda diminished when 10 years ago I attended a public briefing event about some new copyright law changes here in Finland. The lawmaker was asked a question about why the new law criminalized research of DRM systems when done by individuals (as opposed to institutions, who were allowed to research them), and the guy who wrote the law said it wasn't an issue because nobody was going to come to our living rooms to see if we're doing the illegal research. And this guy wasn't some sorry nobody, he (Jukka Liedes) had been the chairman of WIPO’s Standing Committee on Copyright and Related Rights, and AFAIK he was almost selected as the head of WIPO back in 90's. When a man like this says the copyright law isn't a problem if you can just break it without getting caught, it kind of changes how you think about the law.

Pirate everything, pay when you want to support something. It's the way it's meant to be.

[Khyron]

Care to say what game and what dev it was? The word must spread. We must stay informed!

I don't really feel like bringing that game up here, nor using Factorio's forum to name and shame that developer. It's not hard to figure out if you want to know though. I use the same username and avatar on every forum.

Demos don't exist in a vacuum nowadays. Virtually any game has a LP on youtube out there. I myself was attracted to Factorio after watching a youtube LP. Sure, maybe the demo isn't enough, but surely hours upon hours of youtube LPs can give a potential buyer a good impression of a game without having to pirate it?

You would think so, wouldn't you? But most LPs don't really examine the economy or do any kind of optimising... they just meander along. I find that after I play a game for a few hours I get a sense of whether the economy is too simple or somehow broken. Like, take Prison Architect for example. That game has a busted ass design (Things might have changed in the 6 months since I last played) but... You could spend 25% of your income making barebones facilities. The other 75% can go in to decorations which have no gameplay effect. Daily maintenance costs grew in a linear relationship while income grew exponentially. It's also extremely easy to keep prisoners happy and prevent their escape. There seemed to be no risk of failure. LPers basically either don't pay attention or deliberately create vulnerabilities in their design to create drama and action on their videos.