Do You Feel Full Logistic Behind Yellow Pushes Lasers Early?

[Ranakastrasz]

Flame turrets were fixed? When did that happen?

One of the minor versions of 0.15

Flamethrower turret no longer shoots in its prepare state. (46160)

This? I don't think that effects worms and spawners, but I suppose I can test it now

[Selvek]

"tullet" and "shortgun" are my new favorite weapons!

[featherwinglove]

Shortgun.

[Frightning]

The reason lasers outclass Gun turrets is because they have 25 range and 1000 hp to the Gun turret's 17 and 400. It doesn't matter than Gun turrets have way more DPS, you are far more likely, later on in the game, to have Gun turrets destroyed and thus needing to be replaced than Laser turrets. Add to this, that the logistics for supplying Lasers is far more convenient than for Guns and it becomes basically obvious what the better choice is. Gun turrets need an upgrade path that, at the very least, increases their hp by a lot (+600 or more). I would be perfectly happy with 1200 health gun turrets with 17 range given their current DPS potential (even against behemoths, a fully upgraded Gun turret with piercing ammo does about twice the DPS of a fully upgraded Laser turret; with DU ammo, the Gun turret DPS can reach insane levels).

[greep]

Or just flat out increase their hp rather than have a research. Early game, it won't be noticeable much, since you either have enough gun power to kill the melee range biters before they start attacking, or you don't. Extra hp is more about spitter surviveability before repair bots can repair them.

As for the slower logistic network making gun turrets outclassed, I think that's always been the case that gun turrets started to wane by the time big biters show up, for the same reason even: You still needed blue science and a bot network for easy automated gun turrets which for most people is enough reason to just fully replace with laser turrets to be safe.

[HurkWurk]

my major issue with 15 is ammo consumption rates.

I end up going for lasers just to stop the ammo waste of resources.
also the all iron ammo is extremely resource expensive. i wish it was 1/1 not 4/0, or maybe even 2/1. but wasting 4 iron per round is too much.

I ended up with bobs warfare to add more efficient turrets to help me bridge the gap.

[BlakeMW]

my major issue with 15 is ammo consumption rates.

I end up going for lasers just to stop the ammo waste of resources.
also the all iron ammo is extremely resource expensive. i wish it was 1/1 not 4/0, or maybe even 2/1. but wasting 4 iron per round is too much.

True that. Compared with 0.14, when firing regular ammo the turrets deal 25% extra damage but the ammo costs twice as much (-37.5% damage/plate). Firing AP ammo they deal 20% less damage and the ammo costs 40% more (-42% damage/plate) - AP ammo was always bad value for money so now it is appalling value for money (altough it's actually better value for money when shot out of the tank machine gun!). Also the upgrades are more expensive than they used to be which hurts gun turrets more than laser turrets because guns need the damage upgrades to stay convincingly ahead of the biter armor while with lasers you can just spam more of them as an alternative to damage upgrades.

Given that electricity is actually cheaper than before thanks to nuclear power this tips the balance strongly in favor of laser turrets.

Now I would like to emphasize there is nothing wrong with the ammo costs it is still completely possible to defend yourself using turrets firing regular or AP ammo (with regular being a better choice if you can get the damage upgrades quickly enough). If there is an issue it's that laser turrets are too much better.

One simple solution would be to increase the laser turret energy draw to be in line with the new ammo costs - straight up double the energy per laser bolt (but leave the idle draw as it is). Using laser turrets would require some serious investment in energy infrastructure - which is just generally easier in 0.15 thanks to simplified coal plants, more abundant oil for accumulators and nuclear power.

[Ranakastrasz]

my major issue with 15 is ammo consumption rates.

I end up going for lasers just to stop the ammo waste of resources.
also the all iron ammo is extremely resource expensive. i wish it was 1/1 not 4/0, or maybe even 2/1. but wasting 4 iron per round is too much.

I ended up with bobs warfare to add more efficient turrets to help me bridge the gap.

True enough. That is the main reason I swap to laser turrets as soon as possible. Too expensive to upkeep.

I've made a few personal mods to screw with balance. 30 rounds per magazine, gun turret range -> 27. Added a third tier of bullets before uranium bullets existed...

I've never actually used logistics for ammo supply, but I have done a belt around the whole wall before. Was kinda fun.

I think the best change I've seen however was making ammo tend to use copper instead of iron. 2 copper, not 4, for basic ammo, and various other changes. Given I at least always have way more copper than Iron, it makes sense.

[featherwinglove]

Ranakhagikengsaz (<-- give up on trying to type that), it sounds like you'd enjoy playing with Bob's Warfare. The first tier sniper turret takes the standard issue ammunition, has range 30, very low rate of fire (0.4/s IIRC) and a 2400% damage bonus. It also has, at the cost of typical Bob's complexity, late game 25 burst magazines with up to 18 standard damage.