old LTN discussion thread

[jodokus31]

A fine example of "x will be enough" being proven wrong once again.
When I expanded the normal 18 slots a constant combinator has to 50 I didn't think anyone would pack 50 different items in one train. Turns out I was wrong.

I'll check how to best migrate existing constant combinators to higher item_slot_count.
For now don't pack more than 50 - (train composition signals) different items in a train going to an LTN stop.

PS: How many different items are there in a full angels + bobs setup?

Nevermind, my construction train is full of crap because I use it as extended inventory. Usually I provide or request slightly less different items, which works really well so far.
Thanks for this great mod, which lets me try a decentralized base

EDIT to remove double post:

Update 1.3.3:
LTN counts all types that can be put into cargo wagons and all fluids and sets the output slot_size accordingly when loading the game.
Items generated in data-final-fixes by mods loaded after LTN will not be included. If you stumble across a mod doing this let the author know creating items in final-fixes is bad practice.

I've also added a fail safe for such bad mods by removing excess entries and adding an Error message.

The mod portal is still broken, you can find the current build directly on github: https://github.com/Yousei9/Factorio-Log ... tag/v1.3.3

I updated and retested the scenario. No more errors.
Thanks for the quick fix.

[Mobius1]

Hey Optera, I have a question regarding LTN naming:
What would be the consequences of allowing stations that aren't Depots to have same naming?
For example, I have a train station with 2 unloading stations and 6 loading stations they need to have different names since it gives a purple signal error if they have same naming without being Depot. Eventually there are trains on the stacker waiting to load where I have 1 loading station busy and 5 open, if we had the capability of allowing same naming for the stations those trains on the stacker would automatically stop on a nearby open station instead of waiting that one busy station to be freed, allowing more smart setups with trains.

But I don't know the issues that allowing that feature would cause to the mod itself. Could you make a virtual signal that if present would allow such behavior if just plain renaming would cause issues?

[steinio]

Hey Optera, I have a question regarding LTN naming:
What would be the consequences of allowing stations that aren't Depots to have same naming?
For example, I have a train station with 2 unloading stations and 6 loading stations they need to have different names since it gives a purple signal error if they have same naming without being Depot. Eventually there are trains on the stacker waiting to load where I have 1 loading station busy and 5 open, if we had the capability of allowing same naming for the stations those trains on the stacker would automatically stop on a nearby open station instead of waiting that one busy station to be freed, allowing more smart setups with trains.

But I don't know the issues that allowing that feature would cause to the mod itself. Could you make a virtual signal that if present would allow such behavior if just plain renaming would cause issues?

The trains will eventually route to the wrong station because they take the nearest station with a given name.

Put the depot stops in the stacker. The signal you are looking for is IsDepot (boolean).

Greetings, steinio.

[Optera]

Hey Optera, I have a question regarding LTN naming:
What would be the consequences of allowing stations that aren't Depots to have same naming?
For example, I have a train station with 2 unloading stations and 6 loading stations they need to have different names since it gives a purple signal error if they have same naming without being Depot. Eventually there are trains on the stacker waiting to load where I have 1 loading station busy and 5 open, if we had the capability of allowing same naming for the stations those trains on the stacker would automatically stop on a nearby open station instead of waiting that one busy station to be freed, allowing more smart setups with trains.

But I don't know the issues that allowing that feature would cause to the mod itself. Could you make a virtual signal that if present would allow such behavior if just plain renaming would cause issues?

I've extensively answered that question several pages ago.

LTN internally works on unit_numbers "StopA" with uid 1 is not the same as "StopA" with uid 2. However the api does not allow sending trains to a specific uid so i have to ensure names are unique.
Delivering 2000 iron ore to "StopA" uid 1 doesn't satisfy the request of StopA uid 2. Depending on train network one station will very likely be preferred over the other, making one stop overflowing with items while starving the other.
All of that could be overcome by wiring all storage into one stop input acting as requester and let each stops output control un-/loading of it's track. To balance between stops something like circuit controlled entry signals set to letting trains only enter into tracks filled below average would be required (disabling ltn stops through circuit network might also work, but it's untested).

I see very few benefits for such complexity when simply naming the stops "StopA Track1" and "StopA Track2" will solve everything without any added complexity.

PS: Stacker in Factorio are wasted throughput. Trains should only stop in stations where they are actively un-/loaded.

[Maglay]

-

[Optera]

Released 1.3.0. Changed up signals a bit.
[...]
Provider will only be used when they are above provide threshold.
The behaviour of Best Effort/Ignore Minimum Delivery Size can be achieved by setting provide threshold to 1.
Disabling providing from a station can easily be done by setting provide threshold above a stations storage capacity.
[...]

[...]
could someone explain how to reproduce the ignor minimum delivery size.
[...]

Hi optera, do you have any news concerning the ignor minimum delivery size? Do you plan to bring the functionality back or is there a workaround which I dont see yet?

Greetings

Right in the part you quoted.

The behaviour of Best Effort/Ignore Minimum Delivery Size can be achieved by setting provide threshold to 1.

[Maglay]

-

[Optera]

Before the update I had a single ltn station where I put my junk in, e.g. leftover iron plates because I moved the smelting stuff. The input for this station was ignore_min_deliv_size = 1and priority = 100. So as soon as any ltn station requests iron plates, those plates from the junk station where delivered first independent of the actual minimum delivery size. This is what I want/expect.

Now, if I'm understanding the instruction correct, I would replace the ignore_min_deliv_size with the provider_threshold signal and a value of 1 to generate the same behavior.

The configuration you describe will work the same way as before.
Requester triggers when below min delivery size/request threshold.
Provider are valid if they are above provide threshold. With threshold 1 and high priority LTN will pick that provider first.

However, this does not work. The junk station is only used, if the available number of iron-plates exceeds the request_threshold. (Which makes also sense)

Request threshold has no influence when providing.

[Maglay]

-

[Odhrean]

• If you want Deliveries of an item always of size 8k or more set the Provider Threshold on all Stations providing this item to 8k and the Request Threshold on the request Station to 8k
• If you want "Best Effort" set the Provider Threshold on Provider Station to 1 and Requester Threshold on Request Station 1 (the Deliveries are very small... better set it to 50 or something like this )
• If you have a Requester Station which should never provide Items set the Provider Threshold always to 1m
• If you have a Provider Station which should never request Items set the Requester Thresold always to 1m

You can control the complete behavior with the two virtual signals.

[Maglay]

-

[Odhrean]

I think I said it: Set the provider threshold on the providing station to 1 and you must have minimum one requester station which wants this item. A Requester Station wants an item if the Request-Amount (i.e. -100) minus the Request-Threshold (i.e. 1) is lower than zero: -100+1 = -99 => make a request.

[torne]

The effect of "ignore minimum delivery size" was effectively "take all this stuff to any station that can use it and has enough room", but just setting "provider threshold" to 1 only means "take all this stuff away once a station needs a full delivery of that item, even though this station can't provide a full delivery". So, for items that are consumed slowly it might take much longer for the provider station to get emptied out, since there might be a long delay before any requester meets the requester threshold.

The new system is simpler in some ways because stations no longer have an effect on each other and the behaviour of each station is determined only by its own configuration, but there are configurations that you can't express in the new system (and vice versa).

[Maglay]

-

[nuhll]

Could someone PLEASE, post some blueprints for LTN?

Im not able to do a trianstop with LOADING and UNLOADING together.

Also the provided blueprints are not useable for me, because i dont have stack inserters and i cant see where its connectet, for me it seems liek all is connected, if i do the same, i get error. also it seems like a cable is conectet to a rail...

I cant even see a difference between requester and provider.

[Odhrean]

I made a Blueprint-Book with LTN Stations

viewtopic.php?f=194&t=47773

[nuhll]

Much thanks, in endgame i might use it.

Atm its not useable for me.

I play with bobds mods and angels ore, so endgame is a bit far away for me...



Can you short explain how it is done?

Unload:
Green: Lamp - ari (yellow thing * -1 = yellow thing) - filter inserters
Red: Boxes

What i am missing?

Loading:
Green: Lamp - ari (yellow thing * -1 = yellow thing) - filter inserters
Red: Boxes

Where to put the constant combinator?

[Odhrean]

Look at the Images in this Post. It explains how to wire up the LTN Output, Train-Station and Inserters to Load and Unload exacly what was requested.

In short the essential:
Unload:
LTN-Output *-1 + Train Inventory => Set Filter on Filter Inserter
Constant-Combinator: Negative Request-Items Size, should be lower or equal to the maximum Buffer Capacity of all (connected) Train-Station Chests
Set Request-Threshold to not Trigger Deliveries of small size

Load:
Train Inventory * -1 + LTN Output => Set Filter on Filter Inserter
Constant-Combinator: Set Provider-Threshold to not Trigger Deliveries of small size

Both: Connect all Boxes to Lamp

The other combinators are there to sense how many Wagons are in the Station and which Inserters should be active.
This also builds in some extra Ticks until the Inserter recieve a signal and prevents the inserters from loading a player train going to the station.

The Constant combinator must be connected to the LTN-Input (the Lamp)

Edit:
If you are totally low tech and have nothing more than simple inserters this is a simple set up:
Load:
Connect all Chests to the LTN-Input

Unload:
Connect a Constant Combinator to LTN-Input and set negative request amount
Connect all Chests to the LTN-Input

LTN is also working if you don't wire up all Inserters, BUT the Train will stay at the Station until it is full. The LTN Delivery Size will be ignored if items are flowing in into the station all the time. This can be avoided if you disable "finish loading" in the mod settings. The LTN Station will load/unload any Train stopping at the Station.

[Optera]

The effect of "ignore minimum delivery size" was effectively "take all this stuff to any station that can use it and has enough room", but just setting "provider threshold" to 1 only means "take all this stuff away once a station needs a full delivery of that item, even though this station can't provide a full delivery".

Functionality similar to Active Provider Chests as you describe here never was part of LTN.
All best effort/ignore min delivery size ever did was making providers eligible that otherwise would be ignored for providing less than min delivery size. Which is exactly what setting provide threshold to 1 does.

[Maglay]

-