Kovarex Enrichment is not fun

[Kelderek]

In my current game I don't have KEP researched yet, I've been moving through the tech tree deliberately slow because I am building large at each tech stage so it takes a while. So I need to keep processing the ore to feed the fuel cell assemblers. But you're absolutely right I could certainly slow that down. One thing is sure, I will be set for a long time once I get the KEP centrifuges going. I just wouldn't mind seeing the U-238 used for more stuff so there is a reason to keep mining the uranium. I was very happy to see stone and coal get more usage in 0.15 and now both are needed for infinite science.

Hmm, just thinking out loud here, it might be kind of cool if U-238 was somehow part of infinite science. Then all resource types would be needed for science and you would not have any of them sitting idle. Haha, this would probably freak out everyone who thinks uranium ore is too scarce already.

[raidho36]

The process should be reballanced to make large amount of raw U-238 unusable for power. Right now you can basically use 100% of your U-238 to make U-235 and use it for power.

Maybe instead of consuming three of U-238 the enrichment process should produce another U-238 that's depleted for good and its only worthwhile use is ammunition?

[TRICOMMANDER]

after draining a small deposit of uranium and processing it i get a very BIG U-238 to U-235 ratio (exact numbers where around 2.5K U-238 to 7 U-235 after i mined a deposit dry) is this huge 238 to 235 ratio intended, and as for the kovarex enrichment process it requires a large amount of U-235 to begin with. am i missing something? :/

[Shokubai]

u-235 is less than a 1% chance so that seems pretty possible though a bit of bad RNG. It seems daunting but it is really just a matter of processing a lot of ore. I generally kickoff 2 reactors when i start nuclear and about 6 centrifuge usually do that job pretty well.

Some folks get hung up on Kovarex enrichment but it really isn't necessary with 1-4 reactors.

For me, I limit my fuel production with a circuit condition. I keep a minimum amount of fuel and don't let my assembler make more until it gets low. This way 235 has a chance to pile up. By the time i need to expand my setup I usually am ready for kovarex and have plenty to kick start it.

[dragontamer5788]

after draining a small deposit of uranium and processing it i get a very BIG U-238 to U-235 ratio (exact numbers where around 2.5K U-238 to 7 U-235 after i mined a deposit dry) is this huge 238 to 235 ratio intended, and as for the kovarex enrichment process it requires a large amount of U-235 to begin with. am i missing something? :/

Nope. U-235 is supposed to be very hard to get, just like in the real world. Indeed, Uranium in the real world only has a composition of 99.3% U-238 and 0.7% U-235. Kovarex Enrichment is a "fake" process made for the game with no real-world equivalent. (There's no way to turn U-238 into U-235 in the real world IIRC)

You're a little low, in that you only have 7-U-235 instead of the expected 17. But that's within the realm of possibility.

[malventano]

after draining a small deposit of uranium and processing it i get a very BIG U-238 to U-235 ratio (exact numbers where around 2.5K U-238 to 7 U-235 after i mined a deposit dry) is this huge 238 to 235 ratio intended, and as for the kovarex enrichment process it requires a large amount of U-235 to begin with. am i missing something? :/

Nope. U-235 is supposed to be very hard to get, just like in the real world. Indeed, Uranium in the real world only has a composition of 99.3% U-238 and 0.7% U-235. Kovarex Enrichment is a "fake" process made for the game with no real-world equivalent. (There's no way to turn U-238 into U-235 in the real world IIRC)

You're a little low, in that you only have 7-U-235 instead of the expected 17. But that's within the realm of possibility.

The real world equivalent of Kovarex is simply uranium enrichment - you separate out pure 235 from what would appear to be bulk 238. One method is actually via centrifuge (go figure).

[Ace_W]

The process should be reballanced to make large amount of raw U-238 unusable for power. Right now you can basically use 100% of your U-238 to make U-235 and use it for power.

Maybe instead of consuming three of U-238 the enrichment process should produce another U-238 that's depleted for good and its only worthwhile use is ammunition?

Call it something like "uranium 238 depleted" but id give it a high number in keeping with factorios position of permanent loss. Or make the new expensive recipes have said higher number.

[MBas]

The real world equivalent of Kovarex is simply uranium enrichment - you separate out pure 235 from what would appear to be bulk 238. One method is actually via centrifuge (go figure).

Negative There is nothing like kovarex in the real world. Its impossible to get U235 from U238 by any known process. The real enrichment is a process which just change density ratios of U235 and U238 against natural source via separation. Two main processes is something like:

(following shows just approximate ratios)

100% of natural uranium --> 10% of low-enriched uranium + 90% of depleted uranium
100% of low-enriched uranium --> 5% of high-enriched uranium + 95% of depleted uranium

natural uranium (0.7% of U235 and 99.3% of U238) - mineable source
low-enriched uranium (5% of U235 and 95% of U238) - reactor grade
high-enriched uranium (90% of U235 and 10% of U238) - nuclear weapons grade
depleted uranium (0.23% of U235 and 99.77% of U238) - non-nuclear military applications

So there is some coincidences, like using 1:19 ratio of U235:U238 in reactor fuels. Or 0.7% of U235 at mineable uranium. But kovarex process is definite cheat against nature

[Aeternus]

Well, allowances have to be made. Fuel rods tend to last longer then 200 seconds in realworld reactors, and can be moderated with carbon rods to control the rate of reaction (and thereby fuel consumption).
I think the nuclear mechanic in Factorio is fine as is

[MBas]

Well, allowances have to be made. Fuel rods tend to last longer then 200 seconds in realworld reactors, and can be moderated with carbon rods to control the rate of reaction (and thereby fuel consumption).
I think the nuclear mechanic in Factorio is fine as is

Agreed. There is also a topic about sizes of solar panels. Well, if you see dimensions of nuclear stuff, the solars are definetly fine . The hugeness of nuclear power plants against solar panel equivalents nowadays are not actually so far...

But this is just a toy model. We can see how the basic laws works, but we simply should not to take all of the rules so much seriously.

[Qon]

The process should be reballanced to make large amount of raw U-238 unusable for power. Right now you can basically use 100% of your U-238 to make U-235 and use it for power.

That's the whole point of the kovarex process. You want it "rebalanced" to fail at its intended purpose?
The whole point of the nuclear power production was to give a good end game power source that doesn't require stupid amounts of mining and space. Half the point of releasing 0.15 was giving us nuclear power.

If you don't want nuclear power then don't use it. Don't ask for it to be removed from the game.

[BlakeMW]

The process should be reballanced to make large amount of raw U-238 unusable for power. Right now you can basically use 100% of your U-238 to make U-235 and use it for power.

That'd be silly, because IRL you CAN use 100% of the U-238 to make power, it just requires using fast neutrons to convert the U-238 to fissile isotopes and removing the neutron poisons.

Personally I think the breeder reaction should take place in a nuclear reactor which would tend to intrinsically slow it down. But I can see why the devs took the route they did, because it only involves adding 1 new recipe, rather than several new items as would be required for reactor-based fuel breeding.

[raidho36]

The real world equivalent of "enrichment" is breeding, U-238 is converted to Pu-239, which is a nuclear fuel. It's critical mass is very small and it's extremely difficult to control reaction rate so it's not used in nuclear plants for electric power, and also because it's extremely expensive. But it can be used as nuclear power cell that continuously generates up to a kilowatt of power or thereabouts, with half-life of almost a century. It is also a nuclear explosives fuel, again due to very small critical mass.

With that in mind, the rebalancing "enrichment" can be made to produce Pu-239 (instead of U-235) from U-238 catalyzed with U-235, which is then used to create Plutonium fuel cells, and as more potent nuclear explosives fuel. This removes the problem of "enrichment" process producing its own catalyst, thus never needing to mine any more of it once you collect the first 40. In fact, it can be made to (sometimes) consume U-235 in the process of enrichment, i.e. "enrichment" takes 40 U-235 and 3 U-238, produces 39 U-235 + 98% U-235 and 1 Pu-239.

Would be pretty cool even, if Pu-239 was made to be glowing blue or (more realistically) red.

[Ralph]

Hello,

Main problem I think about nuclear is that it's a bit overpowered. With Kovarex enrichment process unlocked, it simply becomes ridiculous. Maybe there should be more space for other types of power supplies also in late-game. Also, nuclear power should come with a higher price / risk.

So my suggestion would be to add an incident system, a bit similar to what is implemented in Anno 2070 (although not very cleverly). The more a nuclear plant is used, the more prone it comes to generates an incident.

Incidents could be ranked in some scales (1 to 3 maybe ?), with for example:

• Level 1: temporary lessened power production (between 3% and 25% ?) until incident is resolved.
• Level 2: equals total shutdown until incident is resolved.
• Level 3: would make the reactor explode just like an atomic bomb, and all the contaminated area not accessible without taking heavy radiation damage.

Incident resolution could simply:

• Happen over time, to start with.
• Later, after extensive use, a simple resolution would simply be to replace the nuclear reactor.

A more sophisticated system would maybe account for a dedicated system which includes plant usability and past usage. When usability drops below 30% (long and extensive use), some repair materials would be needed (either new and specific (would add another layer of difficulty and time for implementation) or already implemented, I am thinking about some processors maybe ?).

[JimBarracus]

I don't think it's overpowered, the Setup costs are insane and you Need a longterm solution for fuel supply.
Planning a nuclear site is also quite complicated.
Compared to solar it is far more balanced in Terms of Setup and upkeep.

I Could imagine some parts, that have some wear within the reactor building, some core chamber ore something compareable.
It would act like a second type of fuel which lasts idk. maybe 500 fuel cell cycles and has to be replaced. Of course automatically.

A cooling System for the reactor would be good. If you start the nuclear process, a lot of heat will be generated and has to be taken out of the System.
Optimum temp range should be around 1000°C, like it is now.
The reactor can overheat and if a certain Level of heat, for example 1500°C is reached the reactor may explode and cause an Explosion several times bigger than the regular nuke bomb.
A cooling Tower and additional water pumps would be required to Keep the temperature in a safe Level.

You either Need enough cooling capacity or enough electric load to use up all the energy the reactor produces in order to Keep it safe.
The process Needs to be automatable because no one wants to take care of the nuclear facility in endgame 24/7.

[Ralph]

I don't think it's overpowered, the Setup costs are insane and you Need a longterm solution for fuel supply.
Planning a nuclear site is also quite complicated.
Compared to solar it is far more balanced in Terms of Setup and upkeep.

Setup costs are insane, not so much I would say, knowing to the amount of power it provides. I think that part is fine.

Solar is also fine I think, since in the reality, solar panel do take a big amount of space.

The reactor can overheat and if a certain Level of heat, for example 1500°C is reached the reactor may explode and cause an Explosion several times bigger than the regular nuke bomb.
A cooling Tower and additional water pumps would be required to Keep the temperature in a safe Level.

You either Need enough cooling capacity or enough electric load to use up all the energy the reactor produces in order to Keep it safe.

I honestly think managing power consumption in such a way (deal with excess heat or explosion) is more of a hassle than a gameplay improvement (electric furnaces, turrets, roboports => they all don't function continuously). Also, I think the way overheat is handled is simply by releasing steam like we can see machines do.

[BlakeMW]

It seems pretty balanced to me.

Solar power is a lot more expensive per MW - although it's obviously a lot cheaper to research. Nuclear becomes cheaper at around 50MW (that it is cheaper to research nuclear power and build a nuclear reactor to generate 50MW, than it is to research solar power and build 50MW of solar/accu). If you use solar/accu/eff1 modules you can reasonably win the game with around 50MW of electricity so Nuclear Power isn't even a no-brainer in the context of launching a rocket.

Nuclear power is a fair bit more expensive per MW than Coal Power, until you start scaling up really big. Once you get up to like 4x Reactor setups then the cost of nuclear power becomes comparable to coal, although it's never actually cheaper than coal - it's just a lot cleaner and the fuel supply is less of an issue. As with solar it is entirely viable to launch a rocket using only coal power, with no clear advantages to going nuclear.

In terms of megabases, although solar is more expensive per MW than nuclear, the cost of either is insignificant compared with research costs. But nuclear comes at the downside of having moving parts, besides the fact that nuclear can go wrong (due to fuel running out) it also impacts UPS to a much greater degree than solar power. For megabases nuclear power is thus not a no-brainer, if we're going to be honest solar/accu is the no-brainer.

So to summarize, when just considering launching a rocket, both Coal and Solar/Accu are very viable alternatives to going nuclear, and often will be more attractive due to lower upfront costs and incremental investment.
For megabases, solar/accu is probably the better choice and nuclear power is merely a viable option.
For intermediate factories nuclear can be very attractive, I find nuclear to be extremely attractive for Deathword and Marathon as power requirements are much higher than standard games but you still care about cost-effectiveness and fuel supply issues are greatly increased due to the longer games, a 160MW or 480MW nuclear plant makes a lot of problems go away - being cheaper than solar/accu with much better power stability for keeping the lasers powered up and being much cleaner than coal with much less fuel supply issues.

On the whole I certainly can't see nuclear power as being overpowered, it's merely a good middle ground option. Essentially it is better than coal power but more expensive and worse than solar/accu but cheaper with better power stability. And if there were more downsides to using Nucler I think it'd just make coal and solar that much more attractive.

[Engimage]

I think nuclear is pretty fine as it is. To be really effective with Kovarex enrichment it takes pretty insane amount of high tech research.

When you complete the research you are pretty much in the endgame where power generation is mostly a secondary task to everything else. And with nuclear it remains being a task compared to solar. Nuclear also requires some engineering with heat pipes and tempering with fueling rates for optimal performance so its pretty fine. No need to add up some risk for it or nerfs to its power.

[Selvek]

I think the balancing on Kovarex is weird, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

Why? Because your uranium supply grows exponentially. The more you have, the faster you can make it. So Kovarex is basically a 1-time delay, followed by all the free U235 you could ever possibly use.

Again, I don't know what the best way is to fix it. Possibly something that starts with slightly higher U235 production, but doesn't grow so crazy fast over time?

I don't feel like nuclear meltdowns fit in the game, especially if they are random. Because 1) factorio is all about deterministic setups, and 2) factorio is about "build and forget". Any pressure-based meltdown mechanic would be the same as the fuel insertion mechanic - people would figure out the required circuit network and then it would just be another thing you need in your blueprints every time you expand nuclear.

[BlakeMW]

Enrichment is only good in the context of nuclear bombs. Basic centrifuging of ore produces more than enough U-235 to make fuel cells, that is to say if your factory is spreading out and consuming all the resources and using nuclear power to run everything, the iron patches will run out before the uranium - even without enrichment.

Enrichment thus is really a way to turn U-238 stockpiles into nuclear bombs, you can use it to make fuel cells too but that just means you'll be leaving lots of uranium un-mined.

One reason it'd good is probably because it's not necessary for nuclear power: it's like an added cost on top of the nuclear bomb research.

(I'm somewhat ignoring the fact you need to figure out something to do with U-238 stockpiles, enrichment solves that problem too, but there are other ways...)