What should I do with science packs?

[ironchefpython]

I'm open to recipe sugestions.

Warfare Science Packs:
1 x Ammo Magazine (uses Gunmetal, Lead, Tin, and all those fancy nitrites recipes)
1 x Distractor Robot (uses Aluminium, Brass, Glass)
1 x Alien Artifact

You can dump this in every bob's warfare recipe that is more powerful than vanilla. I like the idea of using alien artifacts for warfare recipes; to research modules you use module parts, to research infinite science you launch rockets, to research better war you go to war. I know there are people who would prefer to be able to complete 100% research without fighting, so if alien artifacts are disabled, you could replace it with "Used up uranium fuel cell" (imagine the pollution you'll create trying to automate the production of that **evil laugh**).

Infinite Researches

I love to see a mk2 and mk3 rocket, with the mk2 returning 4,000 science, and the mk3 returning 10,000 science. You've got all kinds of options here, tungsten carbide and high temperature ceramics for rocket engines, aluminium and titanium for low density structures, mk2 and mk3 radars, accumulators, and solar panels for the satellite.

[bobingabout]

Alien artifacts in military packs does seem a little... difficult. the military pack is more of a 2.5, where the others are a 4. on top of that, the old alien science pack, which was effectively science pack 4 used to give you 10 packs per artifact! that makes this idea sound really expensive.

And Distractor robot? Yeah, higher than 2.5 science again.

or were you sugesting a new pack? I don't really want more than the 8 that are on there now.

[ironchefpython]

Alien artifacts in military packs does seem a little... difficult. the military pack is more of a 2.5, where the others are a 4. on top of that, the old alien science pack, which was effectively science pack 4 used to give you 10 packs per artifact! that makes this idea sound really expensive.

And Distractor robot? Yeah, higher than 2.5 science again.

or were you sugesting a new pack? I don't really want more than the 8 that are on there now.

Yes, I was suggesting that the warfare pack supplement the military pack, and be added as an additional requirement to the weapon recipes added by the warfare mod (in the same way that the logistics pack does for the logistics mod).

Even worse than just a new pack, I was suggesting a new Warfare science lab. Maybe that's a little bit crazy, but if modules and aliens get their own labs, why not war?

== Edit ==

It might make more sense to re-purpose the alien lab. Most of what was researched in alien labs was focused on murdering aliens anyway.

[bobingabout]

The alien lab is still in there, as it was in 0.14. You just need to turn on alien artifacts in the enemies mod for it to be there.

[ironchefpython]

but adding the alien tech to space science pack for some of the very high or infinite research items, depending on what it is...

The goal of launching lots of rockets is orthogonal to the goal of slaughtering lots of aliens. Some people like one or the other and some like both. But I would only include the alien tech to weapon recipes, and make it exclusionary with space science (so a recipe only uses one or the other).

[bobingabout]

but adding the alien tech to space science pack for some of the very high or infinite research items, depending on what it is...

The goal of launching lots of rockets is orthogonal to the goal of slaughtering lots of aliens. Some people like one or the other and some like both. But I would only include the alien tech to weapon recipes, and make it exclusionary with space science (so a recipe only uses one or the other).

Pretty much is.
no space science pack on the alien lab, and the alien research is only currently used in the warfare mod, and one other place but I forgot what, maybe vehicle equipment on the high end military stuff.

[ironchefpython]

Pretty much is.
no space science pack on the alien lab, and the alien research is only currently used in the warfare mod, and one other place but I forgot what, maybe vehicle equipment on the high end military stuff.

Oh, I like the overall implementation, alien research for alien killing. I was just suggesting tweaking some of the the recipes to use Warfare packs previously suggested (ammo mags, distractor bots, small artifacts) in *addition* to Military packs in some of the higher-end recipes (e.g. sniper turret mk2+, laser rifle ammo 2+, tanks 2+, etc.).

This would give long-term life to the Ammo Magazine again (as uranium rounds are wonderfully overpowered), use more ores and production chains, and make it so if you want to max out your military search, you'll need to set up murder-farms with turrets and conveyor belts to collect the artifacts. This would also let you retire the different colors of artifacts, as trying to get the right number of the right color was always a bit grindy, even if you could dump your excess into colored ammo.

[bobingabout]

trying to get the right number of the right color was always a bit grindy.

if you wanted certain colours, you could always set up specific farms, for example, biters typically drop 3 of the colours, and spitters the other 3, so you could go around and leave nothing but biter nests, and you'd get more blue, green and purple artifacts, or you could leave spitter nests and end up with more orange yellow and red.

Anyway, I did kind of make things easier now, if you have one coloured artifact, you can combine it with 5 regulars to get 5 of that colour.

[arbarbonif]

Feedback on the changes to science: batteries are annoying and bronze is only used for science.

I wonder if it would be interesting to make blue science require brass gear wheels instead, since those would be useful to automate. So advanced circuit, engine and brass gear wheel. Still needs sulfuric acid, but you only need 1 plastic, so there is less demand on oil, and you aren't having to automate something you never use.

[bobingabout]

Feedback on the changes to science: batteries are annoying and bronze is only used for science.

I wonder if it would be interesting to make blue science require brass gear wheels instead, since those would be useful to automate. So advanced circuit, engine and brass gear wheel. Still needs sulfuric acid, but you only need 1 plastic, so there is less demand on oil, and you aren't having to automate something you never use.

to be fair, Bronze IS used for other things too, just rarely. It felt right to have it as a research sink item. Brass gear wheels are a valid option though.

[Airat9000]

Okay, Changes SO FAR for science packs and technology in bobtech:

[

Also, please provide feedback on my choices so far.

hello bro!

find big bug

not in science pack original Industrial pack
But they are required for research in the game ..

2017-05-23_14-32-52.jpg (110.24 KiB) Viewed 6287 times

2017-05-23_14-35-21.jpg (41.54 KiB) Viewed 6287 times

[arbarbonif]

to be fair, Bronze IS used for other things too, just rarely. It felt right to have it as a research sink item. Brass gear wheels are a valid option though.

Until I needed it for science I don't believe I ever created bronze. I must have never made the one or two buildings that required bronze pipes. I'm trying a round where I replaced the batteries and bronze with brass gear wheels (and am using CMHMod so zinc is harder to get). I'll let you know how it goes (for what that is worth).

[arbarbonif]

Yeah, I liked the brass gear wheel way better. I realized on this playthrough that I could launch a rocket quite easily with no bronze and only a handful of batteries (mainly just for robots). I used a lot of brass gear wheels though. Having them automated for science was quite useful. It also made blue science less complicated than the higher tiers. Mk 1 batteries are a huge pain, the higher level batteries were easier to get going. It does mean that I basically didn't use advanced oil processing, I kept running low on sulfuric acid and lubricant. Why can't you vent petroleum gas?

[bobingabout]

Why can't you vent petroleum gas?

Because there's so many other things you can do with it.

If you have excess, you could turn it into fuel blocks.
or you could crack it into hydrogen, then either vent that, or turn it into fuel blocks.

[British_Petroleum]

bronze is convenient, because i usually have tin and copper on the same belt for making white circuits, which are also used in blue science

[bobingabout]

bronze is convenient, because i usually have tin and copper on the same belt for making white circuits, which are also used in blue science

Finally someone who has something good to say about my choice!

[arbarbonif]

bronze is convenient, because i usually have tin and copper on the same belt for making white circuits, which are also used in blue science

Finally someone who has something good to say about my choice!

I'm not sure how "good" that is.
Bronze just isn't interesting or useful. All I did my first try was just slap a couple of metal mixing furnaces by the electronic component production (carbon for fuel, tin and copper for metal) and then forgot about it until I realized I had big buffer of bronze I'll never use. With the brass gear wheels I had a buffer of useful gears for mid-level things and zinc for high level batteries.

The batteries are a much bigger pain. I'm surprised at how annoying I find making them, and that I don't use many at all without the science drain (mainly because steam is better than solar/accumulators now). I really like the vanilla idea of science packs driving you to automate things that are useful to have automated and really neither bronze nor batteries really fit in that at the moment.

[bobingabout]

The problem with Brass though is that you have to go and find Zinc before you can actually use it. Keeping with the original theme of science packs, they want you to use things that you should be automating already. Now, although you need very little brass itself, it's only 1 step away from Tin and Copper, both of which should be in mass production.

In my opinion, Batteries is probably more of a pain in the backside than the bronze.

[arbarbonif]

Yeah, I was playing with the CHMMod stuff which removes zinc and adds a couple recipes to get it from iron or tin. RSO also adds zinc into the starting area.

I think needing to import things for blue science is reasonable, you've got trains after all. It does pretty severely cut your need for oil tho. I had 3x the storage for petroleum because I kept running out of sulfuric acid and lubricant. I also had a glut of lead since I wasn't using it for solder and wasn't needing many batteries. I figure I'll keep it in my personal meta mod regardless, since I was liking it better. And I hate making standard batteries.

[NewSwiss]

Finally someone who has something good to say about my choice!

I was really happy about bronze as well. In my current game, I had lots of copper and tin, but very little iron or zinc, so I was really relieved that bronze was needed instead of steel (especially since engines still eat up plenty of iron/steel).