Development and Discussion

[ashaman16]

Whenever I have infinite ores enabled, only the new ores show up. The vanilla and Bob's stuff isn't gen'd. I'm playing with all angels and bobs mods. Probably doing something wrong, but can't figure it out. Any ideas?

[Zombiee]

all angels and bobs mods

If you're playing with all Angel's and Bob's then the vanilla and Bob ores do not generate by design.

From the description on Angel's Refining:

Changes the Ores so you have to refine them prior to smelting them. For the base game better refining means less byproducts. With bobmods and angelsinfiniteores you have to refine all the base and bobores from 6 raw ores.

So basically look through your recipes and figure what you need to melt/crush/sort/burn/refine to get what you want.

[ashaman16]

I think I see it, thanks. Description was a little confusing.

[daggertx]

@undarl @Jackalope @daggertx
My question would be: Is it interesting to play and figure out and is it better or worse than the old implementation.

I think the way you have it is fun and works well. I like the amount of added completion it has added and it is just the right amount before I start to tackle the full bore bobs/angels craziness.

Also the fact that it supports a vanilla play style is really nice and I appreciate it.

[ukezi]

It would be cool to get rid of the depoendency of refining for petrochem. the only thing I see where they overlap is water and maybe coke/carbon. that could be split of and go into it's own mod.

[Shenpen]

It would be cool to get rid of the depoendency of refining for petrochem. the only thing I see where they overlap is water and maybe coke/carbon. that could be split of and go into it's own mod.

Or the common items could be available in both mods.

De-coupling the two mods would make for easy access for a lot of people who are scared off by the very different ore system in the refining mod.

I find that making refining mod dependent on petrochem would be a lot more logical in terms of the learning curve for the new user.

Just my 2c...

[undarl]

Or the common items could be available in both mods.

De-coupling the two mods would make for easy access for a lot of people who are scared off by the very different ore system in the refining mod.

That seems like a reasonable idea.

I find that making refining mod dependent on petrochem would be a lot more logical in terms of the learning curve for the new user.

Meaning that you find petrochem easier than refining? That's terrifying. Although I guess it might make some sense for a full Bob's stack, do keep in mind that (for now, at least) both refining and petrochem can run on vanilla.

At any rate, I'd much prefer your first suggestion. If refining became dependent on petrochem I'd either want to try to hack that dependency out or stop using refining, either of which would make me very sad.

[Arch666Angel]

The point is that restructuring the mods (because that's what you are asking for) is a lot of work, I did that twice already because I ran into more serious dependency and loading issues with what I had at the time and I'm pretty happy how the current system works out. The point is that each mod in the line adds items and entities that are used by the other mods in line and smelting for example wouldnt make much sense without petrochem because certain processes need chemicals provided by petrochem. It's just a decision I made early on to separate the mods thematically rather than use cases.

---
Refining --0.7.10
-redesigned the water washing process (needs rebuilding)
-added clay and sand if smelting is enabled
-increased fluorite from crystallization

Petrochem --0.5.8
-adjusted to recent changes with bobs revamp
-added rocket fuel capsule and rocket oxidizer capsule
-replaced rocket fuel ingredients by fuel capsule and oxidizer capsule
-added nitrogen monoxide
-added dinitrogen tetroxide
-added option to disable converter recipes completely

Smelting --0.3.2
-increased compression of all pellets to be equal to 3 unprocessed ores
-changed recipes to match changed pellet compression
-doubled the compression of cable coils, changed recipes to match that
-added cement processing
-added glass processing

[TheDoctor89]

I seem to be running in to an issue after updating to the latest versions.
http://i.imgur.com/7iOVzhm.png

[rhyser9]

I've got the exact same problem as TheDoctor89. Just updated and is throwing an error about the washing recipe, except this time it's also pulling in PickerExtended into the mix.

[TheDoctor89]

I've got the exact same problem as TheDoctor89. Just updated and is throwing an error about the washing recipe, except this time it's also pulling in PickerExtended into the mix.

I posted this in the wrong thread. I was supposed to post it in Bugs & FAQ. There is a new version out for refining 0.7.11. Try that. It works for me.

[rhyser9]

Yup, downloading as I type. And whoops, didn't even notice what thread it was. Was just checking a bunch to see if anyone was posting about it so soon after the update.

[nagapito]

The point is that restructuring the mods (because that's what you are asking for) is a lot of work, I did that twice already because I ran into more serious dependency and loading issues with what I had at the time and I'm pretty happy how the current system works out. The point is that each mod in the line adds items and entities that are used by the other mods in line and smelting for example wouldnt make much sense without petrochem because certain processes need chemicals provided by petrochem. It's just a decision I made early on to separate the mods thematically rather than use cases.

---
Refining --0.7.10
-redesigned the water washing process (needs rebuilding)
-added clay and sand if smelting is enabled
-increased fluorite from crystallization

Petrochem --0.5.8
-adjusted to recent changes with bobs revamp
-added rocket fuel capsule and rocket oxidizer capsule
-replaced rocket fuel ingredients by fuel capsule and oxidizer capsule
-added nitrogen monoxide
-added dinitrogen tetroxide
-added option to disable converter recipes completely

Smelting --0.3.2
-increased compression of all pellets to be equal to 3 unprocessed ores
-changed recipes to match changed pellet compression
-doubled the compression of cable coils, changed recipes to match that
-added cement processing
-added glass processing

Yeahhhh, new update!!!

Damn, broke half my stuff

Wants uranium recipe going to change to use purified instead of crystals?

Also, I am assuming that you are removing the bobs pure water and use instead your purified water, correct? if so, maybe disabling the barreling of pure water and also any other fluid that you 'deprecate' so we dont have extra barreling options that cant be used. The ones in use are already enough to clutter the screen

[Shenpen]

Meaning that you find petrochem easier than refining? That's terrifying.

Petrochem is only difficult because the chemistry is scary because the names are hard to remember and hard to understand. Very few people feel comfy with chemistry at all. But the actual implementation of the production systems needed is a lot more straightforward than what is needed in the refining mod.

In refining there are actual difficulties: Setting up a complete ore refining system with three tiers of refining (sorting, flotation and leaching) is a very complex task. The differentiation between different products are vague because the items are fictional and arbitrary. In both mods you need catalyzing as part of many processes, but the petrochem catalyzers are fairly simple as soon as you have the ores from the refining mod.

Petrochem might have a bad rep because people started using it after getting used to the refining mod to some degree. Or they listen to Arumba who likes to sound worried.

Apart from being complex, refining mod also have the issue of changing things early in the "food-chain". You dont get a chance to setup something familiar and build on that. You need to deal with different ores, crushing and new ways of smelting form the get-go. That makes for a very steep learning curve! Also you need technology to deal with the waste products from ore crushing which is not available when you need it. Now the learning curve is not steep, its leaning back the wrong way. Unless you know by heart how to make 14 splitters and a fistfull of underground belts act like a makeshift sorting station, you need to do things manually and to build and rebuild later. The refining mod was meant to be hard, frustrating and annoying. And it is.

[nagapito]

Meaning that you find petrochem easier than refining? That's terrifying.

Petrochem is only difficult because the chemistry is scary because the names are hard to remember and hard to understand. Very few people feel comfy with chemistry at all. But the actual implementation of the production systems needed is a lot more straightforward than what is needed in the refining mod.

In refining there are actual difficulties: Setting up a complete ore refining system with three tiers of refining (sorting, flotation and leaching) is a very complex task. The differentiation between different products are vague because the items are fictional and arbitrary. In both mods you need catalyzing as part of many processes, but the petrochem catalyzers are fairly simple as soon as you have the ores from the refining mod.

Petrochem might have a bad rep because people started using it after getting used to the refining mod to some degree. Or they listen to Arumba who likes to sound worried.

All them are hard and all them are easy.
Once you played them for a while, all them become easy.
They are only hard because you dont know what does what and what the relation is with other things.

Petrochem might be easier then other mods at beginning for some people because of being related with real life but, all of them become trivial once you get the ins and outs of the mods.

[Light]

It's only natural that something unfamiliar gives a very intimidating feeling from the start.

After dealing with just a tiny number of fluids in vanilla, then suddenly viewing 20+ chemicals which are all intertwined and demand so much to create, you will blow a fuse and say aloud "Screw this, it's too hard" without giving it a fair shake.

This is honestly just their loss. Those who look past the initial fear will enjoy the mods and create very elaborate and interesting designs to create the many chemicals that's asked of the player. Eventually you can't play the game without these mods since vanilla just feels too barebones simplistic.

Personally I find petrochem very relaxed compared to refining, if only because a poorly done refining area bottlenecks everything regardless of petrochemical requirements. So it's a great importance to master refining above all else Angel's has to offer, unless you're planning to use the smelting mod alongside it, then it's one hell of a lengthy ride to get your factory going at a stable pace.

[Zyrconia]

Meaning that you find petrochem easier than refining? That's terrifying.

Petrochem is only difficult because the chemistry is scary because the names are hard to remember and hard to understand. Very few people feel comfy with chemistry at all. But the actual implementation of the production systems needed is a lot more straightforward than what is needed in the refining mod.

In refining there are actual difficulties: Setting up a complete ore refining system with three tiers of refining (sorting, flotation and leaching) is a very complex task. The differentiation between different products are vague because the items are fictional and arbitrary. In both mods you need catalyzing as part of many processes, but the petrochem catalyzers are fairly simple as soon as you have the ores from the refining mod.

Petrochem might have a bad rep because people started using it after getting used to the refining mod to some degree. Or they listen to Arumba who likes to sound worried.

Apart from being complex, refining mod also have the issue of changing things early in the "food-chain". You dont get a chance to setup something familiar and build on that. You need to deal with different ores, crushing and new ways of smelting form the get-go. That makes for a very steep learning curve! Also you need technology to deal with the waste products from ore crushing which is not available when you need it. Now the learning curve is not steep, its leaning back the wrong way. Unless you know by heart how to make 14 splitters and a fistfull of underground belts act like a makeshift sorting station, you need to do things manually and to build and rebuild later. The refining mod was meant to be hard, frustrating and annoying. And it is.

Can't say I agree here.

First, a small disclaimer: Angel's + Bob's is evolving all the time and what I say is based on their status when I was playing. Things might not apply for the latest version.

I think Refining is well designed and easy to set up. It is incredibly straightforward. You need to set up multiple tiers like you say and manage sorting, but setting up the tiers is not that hard. Is is simply dropping off larger specialized blocks, adding them to the chain and there is only a handful of byproducts, some of which are very easy to process.

Refining fists so well into the vanilla scheme and you keep upgrading it every time you want a new ore. One small fault it has is that the upgrade path is not that smooth: it often doesn't fell like upgrading you infrastructure, but slightly redesigning it.

But it is incredibly flexible, allowing you to focus on what you need. There are multiple viable builds and you can skip it all for the first 4-6 hours of the game and still get up to blue science.

It also follows this simple principle: be output focused. You want a new ore, you focus on that, get the new ore and most of your work is about getting that new ore. If I am working 2 hours on a Alum build, that is 2 hours of focusing on Alum.

Petrochemical is nothing like this, neither do I think it is that well designed to be fun. It "was meant to be hard, frustrating and annoying". It is a challenge though, so that can be fun.

Let me give you an example: plastic! You want plastic? You need to create a large and complex setup that manages both oil and gas and takes care of 100% of the byproduct, because you can't have it lock up at this stage. This stage is the equivalent of dropping down a refinery. After that start a large and complicated chain where each level adds a new byproduct. Managing some of the byproducts is locked behind tech you need plastic to unlock. Some is locked behind even harder to reach tech.

You end up with a 20-30 buildings build, several byproducts you do not want or need at that time, maybe ever, and at the end of the chain is 1 or 2 chemical plants spitting out a measly amount of plastic. If you want high throughput, the chains are so complicated (there are about 8 links in the chain) that Mathing it all out is complicated. In Refining you often worry about 3-4 link chains. Plus, managing throughput though belts is easier.

And to it the need to manage water treatment byproducts and other stuff and you have huge build in which you are not focusing on your goal.

You are simply not playing the game! I am not building plastic! I am managing byproducts, none of which I want or need and they are all frustrating. If I work 2 hours on a plastic build, most of that time is not spent on plastic, but about 20% on the initial oil + gas stage and the rest is byproducts management.

And if you don't or can't manage the byproducts, by the time you are done with Blue Science, you have so many byproducts that you filled up like 2-10 pressure tanks of each. You can literally have so many byproducts that it take s over 10 hours to get rid of them with normal build. Or you go over the top, add a 20x build, and then have to tear it down.

TLDR: Smelting is flexible and allows you to play the game, go in add a new ore, come up with your own designs.

Petrochem is super rigid, with all the fluids needing to be manged you spend 95% of the time building massive infrastructure to handle byproducts and 5% of the time spent on the actual thing you wanted. Petrochem is very fragile, with long links and any backup can kill you final product with ease.

Their design philosophies are completely different.

If Petrochem was more like Refining and also designed to be not frustrating, you would be able to make plastic simply, but inefficiently. Then you would unlock some tech with a new requirement. The new requirement could be made with a complex new chain (the hard solution) or by changing the plastic recipe (the easy; but byproduct rich solution), to a new one, where it has byproducts that you need for your new requirement. You would be motivated by the new needs of the byproduct to build big and you original inefficiency would be resolved. It would be an interesting logistical challenge to process all the byproducts you want with the ones you don't and at the same time keep plastic in check, not too low, not too high.

PS: I know you can make plastic in several ways and you can ignore oil + gas. It was just an example. But eventually you need to go into oil + gas, so at best you end up postponing the problem.

[nagapito]

PS: I know you can make plastic in several ways and you can ignore oil + gas. It was just an example. But eventually you need to go into oil + gas, so at best you end up postponing the problem.

You can actually totally ignore oil and I think also ignore totally the gas (so far, didnt re-need it yet), at a later stage with angel coal liquification.
If you need fuel oil for some other mod... then you would had a problem but vanilla now also has coal liquification that also gives fuel oil!

I am doing a crazy no coal/oil/gas playthrough.... wood->charcoal->coal liquification

[Zyrconia]

PS: I know you can make plastic in several ways and you can ignore oil + gas. It was just an example. But eventually you need to go into oil + gas, so at best you end up postponing the problem.

You can actually totally ignore oil and I think also ignore totally the gas (so far, didnt re-need it yet), at a later stage with angel coal liquification.
If you need fuel oil for some other mod... then you would had a problem but vanilla now also has coal liquification that also gives fuel oil!

I am doing a crazy no coal/oil/gas playthrough.... wood->charcoal->coal liquification

Yeah, that's why I said it is just an example. Getting plastic is not hard.

Getting plastic though oil + gas (or even worse, oil only) is a side product clusterfuck with pretty much a single build with zero room for error. Anything but a prefectly balanced system will cause intermittent plastic.

Maybe Petrochem is great and only using it for plastic though oil -+ gas sucks. Honestly, I haven't had any other problems with it, but it is hard to tell what is Petrochem and what not.

[nagapito]

PS: I know you can make plastic in several ways and you can ignore oil + gas. It was just an example. But eventually you need to go into oil + gas, so at best you end up postponing the problem.

You can actually totally ignore oil and I think also ignore totally the gas (so far, didnt re-need it yet), at a later stage with angel coal liquification.
If you need fuel oil for some other mod... then you would had a problem but vanilla now also has coal liquification that also gives fuel oil!

I am doing a crazy no coal/oil/gas playthrough.... wood->charcoal->coal liquification

Yeah, that's why I said it is just an example. Getting plastic is not hard.

Getting plastic though oil + gas (or even worse, oil only) is a side product clusterfuck with pretty much a single build with zero room for error. Anything but a prefectly balanced system will cause intermittent plastic.

Maybe Petrochem is great and only using it for plastic though oil -+ gas sucks. Honestly, I haven't had any other problems with it, but it is hard to tell what is Petrochem and what not.

The thing that might scare people is that in vanilla, you have one way of making plastic with what, 2 steps?
Petrochem not only has multiple ways, but each include multiple steps that can be reused on the diferent ways of making plastic. That and the fact that you need quite a considerable amount of stuff to get some plastic. To produce some plastic you need like 20 machines behind it just to get some propene to feed 2 chemical plants. That is scary and gives the impression something is wrong when you are not used to angels mods.