(0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Distelzombie » Thu May 18, 2017 5:27 pm

Aeternus wrote:Only if you do not allow it to expand. Which, granted, you'd probably not want to do if you want to retain the energy density of that steam. But heat and pressure are not directly related.

My guess is they didnt chose 500°C randomly. Therefore I assume the meant supercritical water which is also usually used for power production.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby HurkWurk » Thu May 18, 2017 6:29 pm

Aeternus wrote:Only if you do not allow it to expand. Which, granted, you'd probably not want to do if you want to retain the energy density of that steam. But heat and pressure are not directly related.

if you allow it to expand, it cools, thats why it wants to expand, thus, high pressure.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby HurkWurk » Thu May 18, 2017 6:31 pm

Distelzombie wrote:
HurkWurk wrote:500c steam will require a hell of a lot stronger pipes to handle than water.

To make this clearer: 22.1 MPa = 32053.34 psi = 2210 Bar = 2181.1 Athmospheres. Thats crazy!

3200 psi, not 32000. 220 bars.
still very high.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Distelzombie » Thu May 18, 2017 11:28 pm

HurkWurk wrote:
Distelzombie wrote:
HurkWurk wrote:500c steam will require a hell of a lot stronger pipes to handle than water.

To make this clearer: 22.1 MPa = 32053.34 psi = 2210 Bar = 2181.1 Athmospheres. Thats crazy!

3200 psi, not 32000. 220 bars.
still very high.

Ups, you're right. Bug: I used googles conversion tool. By default it will put a comma instead of a dot in the MPa number even when initial search was with a dot. That was causing the issue. Ups.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Taipion » Thu May 18, 2017 11:42 pm

So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby shihsaikwok » Fri May 19, 2017 12:53 am

Taipion wrote:
Bottom line:
- water and steam ARE the same thing, H20



I just want to say, Diamond and graphite are the same thing, C.
But of course we know they are different.

I dont know if we can turn coal to oil in the real life, but i think using steam is make sense because steam is chemically more active than just water.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby PuffTheDragon » Fri May 19, 2017 5:43 am

shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Bottom line:
- water and steam ARE the same thing, H20



I just want to say, Diamond and graphite are the same thing, C.
But of course we know they are different.

I dont know if we can turn coal to oil in the real life, but i think using steam is make sense because steam is chemically more active than just water.


Or the steam is used to heat up an reaction like in common chemieplants. And yes, its possible.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby PuffTheDragon » Fri May 19, 2017 5:53 am

Taipion wrote:So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D


And insolation to reduce heat loses. Which would dobble the pipes diameter :D
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby shihsaikwok » Fri May 19, 2017 5:58 am

PuffTheDragon wrote:
shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Bottom line:
- water and steam ARE the same thing, H20



I just want to say, Diamond and graphite are the same thing, C.
But of course we know they are different.

I dont know if we can turn coal to oil in the real life, but i think using steam is make sense because steam is chemically more active than just water.


Or the steam is used to heat up an reaction like in common chemieplants. And yes, its possible.


Oh, Thank you and you are right.
I checked the process in the internet.
The steam is used to heat up the coal and then the heated coal will be further changed to liquid hydrocarbons.

So that's why the game use steam instead of water.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 7:51 am

shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Bottom line:
- water and steam ARE the same thing, H20



I just want to say, Diamond and graphite are the same thing, C.
But of course we know they are different.

I dont know if we can turn coal to oil in the real life, but i think using steam is make sense because steam is chemically more active than just water.

I don't know much about C, I mostly use Java. :lol:

Well, that carbon example though misses, that water, unlike carbon, spontanously changes its state all the time,
there really is not much to it to change water from liquid to gas and back, even at room temperature,
the clouds, water transport on earth in general (rain) and the whole planets life cycle would not work without that little detail.

So I dare to say, turning carbon from coal or so into diamonds that needs unimaginable pressure, and water turning from liquid to gas and back at room temperature and without any pressure, is not exactly comparable.
(water can even turn from gas to solid (provided it's below zero°) and from solid to gas just like that)

PuffTheDragon wrote:
Taipion wrote:So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D


And insolation to reduce heat loses. Which would dobble the pipes diameter :D

I rather thought of a stronger pipe to withstand the pressure. :P
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby shihsaikwok » Fri May 19, 2017 8:52 am

Taipion wrote:

So I dare to say, turning carbon from coal or so into diamonds that needs unimaginable pressure, and water turning from liquid to gas and back at room temperature and without any pressure, is not exactly comparable.
(water can even turn from gas to solid (provided it's below zero°) and from solid to gas just like that)




I agree that carbon / diamond is the very extreme example to compare.
If you still think Steam and water is the same, it depends on what aspect you based on to put this statement.

btw, do we call the gas phase of H2O at room temperature as "steam"?
I thought that is "vapour", I am not sure.

May be the steam pipe need to be made from copper to avoid rusting ;)
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby PuffTheDragon » Fri May 19, 2017 8:56 am

Taipion wrote:
shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:
Bottom line:
- water and steam ARE the same thing, H20



I just want to say, Diamond and graphite are the same thing, C.
But of course we know they are different.

I dont know if we can turn coal to oil in the real life, but i think using steam is make sense because steam is chemically more active than just water.

I don't know much about C, I mostly use Java. :lol:

Well, that carbon example though misses, that water, unlike carbon, spontanously changes its state all the time,
there really is not much to it to change water from liquid to gas and back, even at room temperature,
the clouds, water transport on earth in general (rain) and the whole planets life cycle would not work without that little detail.

So I dare to say, turning carbon from coal or so into diamonds that needs unimaginable pressure, and water turning from liquid to gas and back at room temperature and without any pressure, is not exactly comparable.
(water can even turn from gas to solid (provided it's below zero°) and from solid to gas just like that)

PuffTheDragon wrote:
Taipion wrote:So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D


And insolation to reduce heat loses. Which would dobble the pipes diameter :D

I rather thought of a stronger pipe to withstand the pressure. :P


They already do both things in the industrie. Artifactial diamands are common, because its needed for lasers. I heard some buisnesses sell diamonds made from the ashes of your loved ones. These diamonds are perfect ( which is the difference to natural diamonds). But you need a high pressure.

Also you change ice to gas to rescue books. When you have a flood and rare books get soaked wet, they freeze them and change the pressure. This methode was used after a great flood here in germany.

I remember, when i was a kid, i saw the show with the mouse (Sendung mit der Maus), where they showed how to turn plastic back into oil. Very cool as a child.High pressure, again.

This things are possible and i like how factario try to use these technics.

And you want to insulate your pipes. :D or do you want to heat your ground onto 350 degress C. And not your steam engines? Lose of heat is a lose of energy.

After all,without a pressure Attribute, you cannot mimik this things REAL in our beloved game. But thats okay, i think.
Last edited by PuffTheDragon on Fri May 19, 2017 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby PuffTheDragon » Fri May 19, 2017 9:01 am

shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:

So I dare to say, turning carbon from coal or so into diamonds that needs unimaginable pressure, and water turning from liquid to gas and back at room temperature and without any pressure, is not exactly comparable.
(water can even turn from gas to solid (provided it's below zero°) and from solid to gas just like that)




I agree that carbon / diamond is the very extreme example to compare.
If you still think Steam and water is the same, it depends on what aspect you based on to put this statement.

btw, do we call the gas phase of H2O at room temperature as "steam"?
I thought that is "vapour", I am not sure.

May be the steam pipe need to be made from copper to avoid rusting ;)


Copper do rust, and the last thing i want in my steam is copper dust :shock: look at old church roofs, the greeny thing is copper. (I dont know if you have these old churches.) :)
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Hannu » Fri May 19, 2017 9:01 am

Taipion wrote:So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D


It would be too complicated for most players in vanilla game. However, I have thought that for example Bob's mods, which have more than 10 different tubes, could use different tubes for different chemicals like in real world. There should be some moddable mechanism how some liquids would damage some tubes.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 9:16 am

Hannu wrote:
Taipion wrote:So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D


It would be too complicated for most players in vanilla game. However, I have thought that for example Bob's mods, which have more than 10 different tubes, could use different tubes for different chemicals like in real world. There should be some moddable mechanism how some liquids would damage some tubes.


I was not serious about the pipes, I thought that was obvious.

You can throw in whatever arguments you like into this discussion, but most people just pull things out, no matter if it is actually relevant or not.
This is a game, not real world, and the representation of things in the game is not even remotely comparable to things in real life.

From a games perspective, the temperature is the only meaningful difference between water and steam.
From a games perspective, having to change steam into a separate fluid for the sole purpose of being able to define it as an ingredient in a recipe, only shows that the game lacks the means to properly use even those little informations that are there already, not that this separation was actually needed or the right way to go.
This claim is further augmented by how this change caused apparently unwanted and unforseen problems, that are likely not fixable in the near future, and destroy an existing mechanic.

Therefore I say it was wrong, and there should have been a better way to achieve their goal while preserving the existing functionality.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby PuffTheDragon » Fri May 19, 2017 9:33 am

Taipion wrote:
Hannu wrote:
Taipion wrote:So we actually need special pipes to handle steam as it comes in Factorio, as the standard water pipes won't do, right? :D


It would be too complicated for most players in vanilla game. However, I have thought that for example Bob's mods, which have more than 10 different tubes, could use different tubes for different chemicals like in real world. There should be some moddable mechanism how some liquids would damage some tubes.


I was not serious about the pipes, I thought that was obvious.

You can throw in whatever arguments you like into this discussion, but most people just pull things out, no matter if it is actually relevant or not.
This is a game, not real world, and the representation of things in the game is not even remotely comparable to things in real life.

From a games perspective, the temperature is the only meaningful difference between water and steam.
From a games perspective, having to change steam into a separate fluid for the sole purpose of being able to define it as an ingredient in a recipe, only shows that the game lacks the means to properly use even those little informations that are there already, not that this separation was actually needed or the right way to go.
This claim is further augmented by how this change caused apparently unwanted and unforseen problems, that are likely not fixable in the near future, and destroy an existing mechanic.

Therefore I say it was wrong, and there should have been a better way to achieve their goal while preserving the existing functionality.

Now that they have steam, they will use it in more recipes. At the moment, there may be few uses, but there are things to come.
I wouldnt claim they are wrong. Its correct to seperate a gas and fluid and perhabs we get even more gases! Like a gas plane!
Its a small step away from the things we are used to. we will see where it goes!
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby shihsaikwok » Fri May 19, 2017 9:41 am

Taipion wrote:
From a games perspective, the temperature is the only meaningful difference between water and steam.
From a games perspective, having to change steam into a separate fluid for the sole purpose of being able to define it as an ingredient in a recipe, only shows that the game lacks the means to properly use even those little informations that are there already, not that this separation was actually needed or the right way to go.
This claim is further augmented by how this change caused apparently unwanted and unforseen problems, that are likely not fixable in the near future, and destroy an existing mechanic.

Therefore I say it was wrong, and there should have been a better way to achieve their goal while preserving the existing functionality.



When I check that the real life Coal liquefaction is using steam, i think steam should be the correct ingredient instead of water.

You think it is wrong because you like the original recipe?

I think the game is doing a very great job on these kind of issue, which is simulating the real life but not overcomplicated or oversimplified.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 10:01 am

shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:
From a games perspective, the temperature is the only meaningful difference between water and steam.
From a games perspective, having to change steam into a separate fluid for the sole purpose of being able to define it as an ingredient in a recipe, only shows that the game lacks the means to properly use even those little informations that are there already, not that this separation was actually needed or the right way to go.
This claim is further augmented by how this change caused apparently unwanted and unforseen problems, that are likely not fixable in the near future, and destroy an existing mechanic.

Therefore I say it was wrong, and there should have been a better way to achieve their goal while preserving the existing functionality.



When I check that the real life Coal liquefaction is using steam, i think steam should be the correct ingredient instead of water.

You think it is wrong because you like the original recipe?

I think the game is doing a very great job on these kind of issue, which is simulating the real life but not overcomplicated or oversimplified.


Where, anywhere in this whole thread, did I say, or even hint at, that the recipe should not require steam (= water above 100°)?!

I did not!

What I did say though, frequently, and what everyone is outright ignoring, is the fact that it should not be necessary to have a separate fluid for that!
The game lacks the means (damn it, I must be typing these exact same words at least the 5th time in this thread, as no one cares to read anything before posting -.-)...
The game lacks the means to fully utilize the information available, displaying water as steam when it's above 100° should be all that is needed, yet, it was apparently not possible to make this temperature based distinction in a recipe.
Therefore, making steam a separate fluid, whereas the only actual difference (ingame, mind you!) is the temperature, is a bad thing, as it is a workaround for not being able to correctly make use of the heat property, instead of fixing that.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby PuffTheDragon » Fri May 19, 2017 10:10 am

Taipion wrote:
shihsaikwok wrote:
Taipion wrote:
From a games perspective, the temperature is the only meaningful difference between water and steam.
From a games perspective, having to change steam into a separate fluid for the sole purpose of being able to define it as an ingredient in a recipe, only shows that the game lacks the means to properly use even those little informations that are there already, not that this separation was actually needed or the right way to go.
This claim is further augmented by how this change caused apparently unwanted and unforseen problems, that are likely not fixable in the near future, and destroy an existing mechanic.

Therefore I say it was wrong, and there should have been a better way to achieve their goal while preserving the existing functionality.



When I check that the real life Coal liquefaction is using steam, i think steam should be the correct ingredient instead of water.

You think it is wrong because you like the original recipe?

I think the game is doing a very great job on these kind of issue, which is simulating the real life but not overcomplicated or oversimplified.


Where, anywhere in this whole thread, did I say, or even hint at, that the recipe should not require steam (= water above 100°)?!

I did not!

What I did say though, frequently, and what everyone is outright ignoring, is the fact that it should not be necessary to have a separate fluid for that!
The game lacks the means (damn it, I must be typing these exact same words at least the 5th time in this thread, as no one cares to read anything before posting -.-)...
The game lacks the means to fully utilize the information available, displaying water as steam when it's above 100° should be all that is needed, yet, it was apparently not possible to make this temperature based distinction in a recipe.
Therefore, making steam a separate fluid, whereas the only actual difference (ingame, mind you!) is the temperature, is a bad thing, as it is a workaround for not being able to correctly make use of the heat property, instead of fixing that.



And as i said, we dont have the attribute for that. So seperating water and steam, is a good and easy way to come near reality and open way for more fluid/gases. Adding an attribute like pressure would be harder i thing and like shihsaikwok point it out: its easier for beginners, because its easier to understand.
shihsaikwok wrote:[

I think the game is doing a very great job on these kind of issue, which is simulating the real life but not overcomplicated or oversimplified.
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Re: (0.15.10+) Water and Steam, what's the plan?

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 10:31 am

PuffTheDragon wrote:And as i said, we dont have the attribute for that.

There is "Heat" on all fluids, how is that not enough to distinguish water from steam, for all it's worth in Factorio?!

PuffTheDragon wrote:So seperating water and steam, is a good and easy way to come near reality

How is there any intention to get this "closer to reality"? That is totally off the point here.

PuffTheDragon wrote:Adding an attribute like pressure would be harder i thing and like shihsaikwok point it out: its easier for beginners, because its easier to understand.

- for the game, pressure is totally irrelevant and unneeded
- this has nothing to do with "make it understandable"

What did you intend with that post?
Did you actually read anything I wrote?

This sums it up, again:
Taipion wrote:The game lacks the means to fully utilize the information available, displaying water as steam when it's above 100° should be all that is needed, yet, it was apparently not possible to make this temperature based distinction in a recipe.
Therefore, making steam a separate fluid, whereas the only actual difference (ingame, mind you!) is the temperature, is a bad thing, as it is a workaround for not being able to correctly make use of the heat property, instead of fixing that.
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