Development and Discussion

[Mobius1]

I am not sure if it is a conflict with one of the many mods i use, but the electric boiler throws an invalid prototype array exception in the dataloader.lua and only want to disable the electric-boiler mod, nothing else.

Yeah the mod doesn't work, trying to figure out why.

I don't see why an inability to barrel steam would be such a bad thing. I imagine in most cases it'll be simpler (and result in less usage of the train network) to produce steam on-site where it's needed. Same with a lot of items and fluids that have very few uses. It would also make more sense in terms of realism to produce steam on-site than to move it around from another location, though I know not everyone cares that much about realism.

One image:

image

http://prntscr.com/f7s8w4[img]http://im ... 8265df.png[/img]

That's the initial chemical base, I plan on increasing it as soon as I get more resources (a.k.a bots)

[septemberWaves]

That's the initial chemical base, I plan on increasing it as soon as I get more resources (a.k.a bots)

I'm not quite sure what's going on in that image. Are you saying that that base is for producing all chemicals? It seems a bit compact for that purpose.

Even so, if you're producing a lot of chemicals at that site and need steam cracking, it would take the same number of stations to ship in burnable fuel as it would to ship in steam, but without the need for a train on the network specifically for steam (and since most train networks tend to have trains for burnable fuel that'd mean one less train on the network). Producing steam elsewhere seems kind of like an unnecessary extra step to me.

[nagapito]

I don't see why an inability to barrel steam would be such a bad thing. I imagine in most cases it'll be simpler (and result in less usage of the train network) to produce steam on-site where it's needed. Same with a lot of items and fluids that have very few uses. It would also make more sense in terms of realism to produce steam on-site than to move it around from another location, though I know not everyone cares that much about realism.

Well, imagine you have a base that requires steam, A LOT of steam due to tweaked recipes, size, refuse to use oil, whatever.
Ant the steam is needed in multiple different places. If you have a compact base, barrelling and using bots to move it its way better.
Even if you dont have a compact base... A good source of efficient steam is, I think, nuclear reactors. So you dont want to build a reactor on every corner you need steam.

But, an huge centralized, nuclear reactor zone, producing power and steam for the rest of the factory...

My question is, since I havent tried it yet, can I move steam on tanks wagons?

[septemberWaves]

Well, imagine you have a base that requires steam, A LOT of steam due to tweaked recipes, size, refuse to use oil, whatever.
Ant the steam is needed in multiple different places. If you have a compact base, barrelling and using bots to move it its way better.
Even if you dont have a compact base... A good source of efficient steam is, I think, nuclear reactors. So you dont want to build a reactor on every corner you need steam.

But, an huge centralized, nuclear reactor zone, producing power and steam for the rest of the factory...

My question is, since I havent tried it yet, can I move steam on tanks wagons?

That's a fair point. I can definitely understand situations where people might like easy movement of steam, I just don't see why it would have to be a requirement for playing.

The nuclear reactors are actually a very good idea which I hadn't thought of; I tend to just use conventional steam boilers to produce steam for anything other than reactor turbines.

I don't know if steam can be moved by rail as a fluid, but I think it can since it uses normal fluid mechanics. That might be a sufficient alternative to barelling.

[Frostl]

Angel, first of all, I'd like to thank you for awesome work with your mods. They make me suffer and I like it a lot =)

Now, I have a few issues I need some help with (I play with bob's mods + refining and petrochem):
1. The thing is that Jivolite is the most heavily used ore for me at the moment. Firstly, science now consume a lot of iron, so I use Jivolite + Saphirite sorting. Secondly, I refine it in parallel to produce zinc and silver. And lastly, I sort it with Rubyte to get aluminium for bots, logistics and so on. I have quite a few Jivolite patches on the map, but they all are not very big with infinite part almost half of the patch.
Here's a problem - I almost cannot mine infinite Jivolite, because I don't have enough hydrofluoric acid. Right now I get it from acid gas but it is not very inefficient, there is just not enough of the gas. I have a recipe 'Synthesis Hydrofluoric Acid' but it needs fluorite ore, and it seems to belong to some mod I don't have. I have some fluoric waste water as well, but there are no any recipes for that.
So I'm pretty much stuck at the moment. It's either process tons of raw gas to get acid gas or use less efficient refining options to get iron, aluminium and other materials. And by the way Jivolite crystals recipe use this acid as well.
Something is definitely not right here. For instance producing hydrochloric acid for crotinnium is easy, basically you can get it from water.
2. I already mentioned fluoric waste water. The same thing goes for nitric waste water and chloric waste water. There are no recipes to process them. I believe they should be similar to sulfuric waste water purification.
3. I think that salination plant should not require aluminium plates. You need chlorine way before starting to make aluminium, and getting saline water from hydroplant is just frustrating. You need 5 hydroplants to feed two electrolysers, and then add 2-3 clarifiers to void excess pure water. I don't see any reason to make salination plant this hard to get. As things stand now, one forced to build huge setup with hydroplants to scrap it the moment they get their hands on some aluminium.

[Light]

I strongly feel the balance for uranium ore should remain constant with what Fatmice had previously, for a few reasons.

1. It still plays nicely with the uranium mod (Which is soon 0.15 ready)
2. Vanilla reactors only require 70,000 on average for enrichment.
3. It's cheap to use early on.

One of the weirdest flaws with the vanilla reactor is that you only require around 70,000 ore to get the 40 U-235 for enrichment, then the need for ore is pretty much non-existent. Given we get 3 per cycle, it doesn't exactly take very long to stockpile and the sorting process can be started rather early. When you research the enrichment process you're basically ready to go right out the gate with minimal cost and a small setup.

Returning the sorting process to 80% per cycle would at least slow this down, as going nuclear should be a bigger investment to get such a massive amount of power in both time and ores.

[nagapito]

Angel, first of all, I'd like to thank you for awesome work with your mods. They make me suffer and I like it a lot =)

Now, I have a few issues I need some help with (I play with bob's mods + refining and petrochem):
1. The thing is that Jivolite is the most heavily used ore for me at the moment. Firstly, science now consume a lot of iron, so I use Jivolite + Saphirite sorting. Secondly, I refine it in parallel to produce zinc and silver. And lastly, I sort it with Rubyte to get aluminium for bots, logistics and so on. I have quite a few Jivolite patches on the map, but they all are not very big with infinite part almost half of the patch.
Here's a problem - I almost cannot mine infinite Jivolite, because I don't have enough hydrofluoric acid. Right now I get it from acid gas but it is not very inefficient, there is just not enough of the gas. I have a recipe 'Synthesis Hydrofluoric Acid' but it needs fluorite ore, and it seems to belong to some mod I don't have. I have some fluoric waste water as well, but there are no any recipes for that.
So I'm pretty much stuck at the moment. It's either process tons of raw gas to get acid gas or use less efficient refining options to get iron, aluminium and other materials. And by the way Jivolite crystals recipe use this acid as well.
Something is definitely not right here. For instance producing hydrochloric acid for crotinnium is easy, basically you can get it from water.
2. I already mentioned fluoric waste water. The same thing goes for nitric waste water and chloric waste water. There are no recipes to process them. I believe they should be similar to sulfuric waste water purification.

All the recipes to treat the waste water should be unlocked in water treatment, together with the sulfuric waste water! That is where you get the fluorite.
And, hydrofluoric acid and fluoric waste water are in a 1 to 1 ration. That is, the amount of fluoric waste water you get from floatation produces the exact amount of hydrofluric acid to be used on the leaching. You use the acid gas to obtain the extra needed for mining or smelting.

[Light]

Angel, first of all, I'd like to thank you for awesome work with your mods. They make me suffer and I like it a lot =)

Now, I have a few issues I need some help with (I play with bob's mods + refining and petrochem):
1. The thing is that Jivolite is the most heavily used ore for me at the moment. Firstly, science now consume a lot of iron, so I use Jivolite + Saphirite sorting. Secondly, I refine it in parallel to produce zinc and silver. And lastly, I sort it with Rubyte to get aluminium for bots, logistics and so on. I have quite a few Jivolite patches on the map, but they all are not very big with infinite part almost half of the patch.
Here's a problem - I almost cannot mine infinite Jivolite, because I don't have enough hydrofluoric acid. Right now I get it from acid gas but it is not very inefficient, there is just not enough of the gas. I have a recipe 'Synthesis Hydrofluoric Acid' but it needs fluorite ore, and it seems to belong to some mod I don't have. I have some fluoric waste water as well, but there are no any recipes for that.
So I'm pretty much stuck at the moment. It's either process tons of raw gas to get acid gas or use less efficient refining options to get iron, aluminium and other materials. And by the way Jivolite crystals recipe use this acid as well.
Something is definitely not right here. For instance producing hydrochloric acid for crotinnium is easy, basically you can get it from water.
2. I already mentioned fluoric waste water. The same thing goes for nitric waste water and chloric waste water. There are no recipes to process them. I believe they should be similar to sulfuric waste water purification.
3. I think that salination plant should not require aluminium plates. You need chlorine way before starting to make aluminium, and getting saline water from hydroplant is just frustrating. You need 5 hydroplants to feed two electrolysers, and then add 2-3 clarifiers to void excess pure water. I don't see any reason to make salination plant this hard to get. As things stand now, one forced to build huge setup with hydroplants to scrap it the moment they get their hands on some aluminium.

1. It seems the fluoric waste water reprocessing only gives a single fluorite ore when it should actually be giving 10. This is likely the primary reason why you can't keep the acid levels high enough to sustain ore patches. Only the fluids were multiplied, not the ores.

Angel will need to readjust this so you can mine and sustain your acid levels.

2. They do have reprocessing (as mentioned by nagapito) however nitric and chloric waters always gave nothing back but common fluids in their reprocessing so you're likely to void them regardless. Nitric waste is nice for mineralized water though.

3. It's honestly a bit surprising that you don't have aluminum processing started by the time you need several dozen hydro plants, given how early you can process aluminum plates. When considering how much saline water a salination plant gives, the cost of mid-game materials makes sense given it's intended to be superior in every sense of the word.

---

For the steam questions above

[nagapito]

1. It seems the fluoric waste water reprocessing only gives a single fluorite ore when it should actually be giving 10. This is likely the primary reason why you can't keep the acid levels high enough to sustain ore patches. Only the fluids were multiplied, not the ores.

20 crushed jivolite gives you 500 fluoric waste water. and 20 jivolite chunks
500 fluoric waste water gives 5 fluorite
5 fluorite gives 50 Hydrofluoric acid
50 hydrofluoric acid can process 20 jivolite chunks into 20 jivolite crystals.

The 1 to 1 ratio I talked. This has always been this way, no positive or negative net on production. If you need more for smelting mod, and now infinite mining, you get it from acid gas!

Sadly, jivolite chunks are used in zinc and aluminium sorting, which, lest be honest, its not one of the most used ores. If it was used on a more common ore, the player would be producing more hydrofluoric acid that didnt get used in the leaching process since the ore went to sorting. Maybe, that could be a small tweak to balance the acid production since now it has a little more demand!

[Arch666Angel]

@Frostl
Did you add Petrochem to your game at a later point? Because it adds recipes to the water treatment technology and if you had already researched that when adding you need to unlock them by hand.

@nagapito
well smelting gives you some tool to spread the load of the most used metals to different ores through the alloying step at the end, where you can mix different ingots to produce an alloy of the main metal. So it's a bit about clever mixing and spreading the load over different ores.

[Frostl]

@Frostl
Did you add Petrochem to your game at a later point? Because it adds recipes to the water treatment technology and if you had already researched that when adding you need to unlock them by hand.

It seems I encountered a bug or something. Checked my research and there are recipes under water treatment, but not in my recipes list. I played with all mods from the beginning. Is there any way to unlock recipes without console commands. Don't want to disable the achievements =/

[Frostl]

20 crushed jivolite gives you 500 fluoric waste water. and 20 jivolite chunks
500 fluoric waste water gives 5 fluorite
5 fluorite gives 50 Hydrofluoric acid
50 hydrofluoric acid can process 20 jivolite chunks into 20 jivolite crystals.

The 1 to 1 ratio I talked. This has always been this way, no positive or negative net on production. If you need more for smelting mod, and now infinite mining, you get it from acid gas!

Sadly, jivolite chunks are used in zinc and aluminium sorting, which, lest be honest, its not one of the most used ores. If it was used on a more common ore, the player would be producing more hydrofluoric acid that didnt get used in the leaching process since the ore went to sorting. Maybe, that could be a small tweak to balance the acid production since now it has a little more demand!

Refining is alright, I agree. But what you can get from aluminium sorting and acid gas is nowhere near enough to sustain mining, because in 0.15 you need tons and tons of iron. It actually gets worse, because mining drill stops when encounter infinite ore and doesn't have acid, so it doesn't mine regular ore as well. And like I said earlier, seems odd that you can get any amount of acid for crotinnium and at the same time it's really hard to get acid for jivolite. It would take much more raw gas processing that is really needed and a lot of pain to deal with access of other products.

[Frostl]

3. It's honestly a bit surprising that you don't have aluminum processing started by the time you need several dozen hydro plants, given how early you can process aluminum plates. When considering how much saline water a salination plant gives, the cost of mid-game materials makes sense given it's intended to be superior in every sense of the word.

Chlorine is used in circuit board (ferric-chloride solution) and electronic circuit board (silicon) production. Those are needed for logistic network. At this stage of the game you don't need aluminium at all. Salination plant required those electronic circuit boards and aluminium. The point is that you forced to build unnecessarily large setup with hydroplants and clarifiers only to rebuild it from scratch when you have all the materials needed for salination plant and want to scale your chlorine production.

[Mobius1]

I'm not quite sure what's going on in that image. Are you saying that that base is for producing all chemicals? It seems a bit compact for that purpose.
Even so, if you're producing a lot of chemicals at that site and need steam cracking, it would take the same number of stations to ship in burnable fuel as it would to ship in steam, but without the need for a train on the network specifically for steam (and since most train networks tend to have trains for burnable fuel that'd mean one less train on the network). Producing steam elsewhere seems kind of like an unnecessary extra step to me.

Yeah, currently that thing produces almost all chemicals from petrochem, oil processing, separation, battery, plastic (all 3 tiers), all cracking, just missing nitrogen processing for rocket fuel then I'll beacon it and triple it untill I can make 10 rockets per second. Gotta launch 10 ion cannons per sec after making a spaceport and sending some colonists there (space ex).
Those biters keeps showing up from nowhere they're getting smarter every day, gotta nuke 'em all!

[Light]

1. It seems the fluoric waste water reprocessing only gives a single fluorite ore when it should actually be giving 10. This is likely the primary reason why you can't keep the acid levels high enough to sustain ore patches. Only the fluids were multiplied, not the ores.

This has always been this way, no positive or negative net on production. If you need more for smelting mod, and now infinite mining, you get it from acid gas!

Sadly, jivolite chunks are used in zinc and aluminium sorting, which, lest be honest, its not one of the most used ores. If it was used on a more common ore, the player would be producing more hydrofluoric acid that didnt get used in the leaching process since the ore went to sorting. Maybe, that could be a small tweak to balance the acid production since now it has a little more demand!

Yeah, I made a miscalculation on that one. The fluorite returned is correct, although it just felt off at first glance, which was to be expected given all the patches with some things skipped or missed during the transition. The numbers all start to blur.

I'm still giving mod developers a good week or two longer to comb through their code and get things smoothed nicely before I start an actual game, since many recipes of other mods (including bobs) still have some tweaks left to do.

3. It's honestly a bit surprising that you don't have aluminum processing started by the time you need several dozen hydro plants, given how early you can process aluminum plates. When considering how much saline water a salination plant gives, the cost of mid-game materials makes sense given it's intended to be superior in every sense of the word.

Chlorine is used in circuit board (ferric-chloride solution) and electronic circuit board (silicon) production. Those are needed for logistic network. At this stage of the game you don't need aluminium at all. Salination plant required those electronic circuit boards and aluminium. The point is that you forced to build unnecessarily large setup with hydroplants and clarifiers only to rebuild it from scratch when you have all the materials needed for salination plant and want to scale your chlorine production.

Technically no, you don't need aluminum in any large quantity early on. However you're likely to have started on jivolite or rubyte chunks by this point and can quickly sort for a couple aluminum ores to get the ball rolling. Even some mineral slurry for a couple works fine even if you don't have chunks completed.

A single salination plant made from a few of these ores will hold you over for a long while given the mass amount of saline provided. It's a strong mid-game entity and worthy of some effort to acquire.

Also, not to sound like a complete smartass, but rebuilding your setups with better stuff and scaling upwards is the name of the game. Especially when you get a structure as good as that. Plus you must also realise that salination plants are a recent addition due to late game factories needing several hundred hydro plants with Mk8 speed modules just to get things moving. Needing 10 aluminum plates easily obtained from a quick sorting process isn't such a bad exchange for something that good.

[Mobius1]

Sadly, jivolite chunks are used in zinc and aluminium sorting, which, lest be honest, its not one of the most used ores. If it was used on a more common ore, the player would be producing more hydrofluoric acid that didnt get used in the leaching process since the ore went to sorting. Maybe, that could be a small tweak to balance the acid production since now it has a little more demand!

My friend, I gotta disagree with you, Jivolite is the 2nd most used ore by me on my factory D:'
Below is my MK2 Ore sorter setup, capable of producing up to 10k ores when needed, going to upgrade it later on to a decent 100k ore sorter
My smelters are able to output 120k plates/min but still too low for my plans

Ore Sorter

http://prntscr.com/f7vmmo

I'm liquifying Acid Gas along with the flurite ore processing to keep up with the jivolite consumption, but I'm starting to need a dedicated crystallizer for it

I use aluminium like a hungry smith D:' those logistic zone expanders, logistic robots and robot charging pads eat aluminium like crazy!
This is how much jivolite my factory eats, its still young as I haven't gone crazy on the expansion yet, also only consuming 180MW of power

Jivolite Eater MK10

http://prntscr.com/f7vpun

[Diedel]

I am not sure if it is a conflict with one of the many mods i use, but the electric boiler throws an invalid prototype array exception in the dataloader.lua and only want to disable the electric-boiler mod, nothing else.

Yeah the mod doesn't work, trying to figure out why.

I at least figured out the prototype array error, the fluid_box has an error, that should be height = 2. Also the mining result is still a boiler

fluid_box =
{
base_area = 1,
heigh
base_level = -1,

The missing item and recipe i just copy&pasted from the original boiler, Now i can craft and placed it, just have to figure out why it is complaining about now power.

[nagapito]

Sadly, jivolite chunks are used in zinc and aluminium sorting, which, lest be honest, its not one of the most used ores. If it was used on a more common ore, the player would be producing more hydrofluoric acid that didnt get used in the leaching process since the ore went to sorting. Maybe, that could be a small tweak to balance the acid production since now it has a little more demand!

My friend, I gotta disagree with you, Jivolite is the 2nd most used ore by me on my factory D:'
Below is my MK2 Ore sorter setup, capable of producing up to 10k ores when needed, going to upgrade it later on to a decent 100k ore sorter
My smelters are able to output 120k plates/min but still too low for my plans

Ore Sorter

http://prntscr.com/f7vmmo

I'm liquifying Acid Gas along with the flurite ore processing to keep up with the jivolite consumption, but I'm starting to need a dedicated crystallizer for it

I use aluminium like a hungry smith D:' those logistic zone expanders, logistic robots and robot charging pads eat aluminium like crazy!
This is how much jivolite my factory eats, its still young as I haven't gone crazy on the expansion yet, also only consuming 180MW of power

Jivolite Eater MK10

http://prntscr.com/f7vpun

I think you missed my point.

I dont mean jivolite in general, I mean jivolite chunks, since those are the ones that give you fluoric waste water.
And by jivolite chunks, I mean being used directly to produce ores and not into jivolite crystals, where all the fluorite would be used and no excess produced

[nagapito]

@nagapito
well smelting gives you some tool to spread the load of the most used metals to different ores through the alloying step at the end, where you can mix different ingots to produce an alloy of the main metal. So it's a bit about clever mixing and spreading the load over different ores.

Crazy idea... infinite mining ore also returns waste water?

Seems that it might be possible, since Bobs water pump was outputing water and stone

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=45001&p=274677#p274634

[septemberWaves]

@nagapito
well smelting gives you some tool to spread the load of the most used metals to different ores through the alloying step at the end, where you can mix different ingots to produce an alloy of the main metal. So it's a bit about clever mixing and spreading the load over different ores.

Crazy idea... infinite mining ore also returns waste water?

Seems that it might be possible, since Bobs water pump was outputing water and stone

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=45001&p=274677#p274634

I don't think it's possible without making a new mining machine (which I don't actually oppose, but it'd be some extra coding work). The reason is because the miners currently are designed for a single fluid, and as far as I can tell they work similarly to pipes in that miners will transfer fluid between all fluid connections. In order to have multiple fluids running through miners, you'd have to make significant changes to how the entity works, and it'd probably be simplest to just make an entirely new miner that works like an existing machine designed for multiple fluids (like a refinery).

I think it's a good idea for fluid miners to output waste water, but it'd probably be more work to add in than you may realize.